My concerns about Vector Thrust Thread - Vector Thrust

Hello everyone. It is odd for me to post stuff like this on the forum, especially since it's my first time coming up here. here's my collection of thoughts about Vector Thrust, the game's goal, TimeSymmetry and the current situation.

Seeing how the latest (and only) chat I took part in between B.A.F. and TimeSymmetry has impacted me, I've been giving it some thought, and I think there's several issues to adress.I do not want to blame anyody in particular, but there will unavoidably be things that hurt sooner or later. So, here goes, sorted out by topic.
Please note that all of the statements below are my personal opinion, and that I tend to have a very analytic point of view, sometimes going too far.

Vector Thrust:
As of the internal beta builds, I can say that the game's content has greatly expanded, much more than I would have expected prior to entering the Beta. There are lots of things to polish, of course, and content is especially important. Since I've been tinkering with the game since its Alpha builds, I've come to an understanding to how things work. While it's not on par with TS's, I'm not far from it and understand how long and complicated building a game like that can be. However, there comes an issue, which I usually would like to call the Lampyridae Issue, or LI for short.

The problem is, I think variants are nice, but I believe TimeSymmetry might be trying to do justice to some aircraft variants or concepts with this game. It is a legitimately noble plan, so we get more variety than just having a f*ckfest of F-22 Raptors everywhere as flag craft in every modern combat flight sim out there. Yes, I'm that sick of the F-22/A. But it still earns its place in the game, of course.
The problem comes when we try to spread too thin trying to make a variant of everything whilst trying to have as many designs and variations playable in the game. We have to decide enough is enough at some point. One of my best friends who taught me a lot about 3D modelling and art (along with the Box-as- animation-bone-node technique on 3dsmax) once taught me something very valuable: "Your artwork is complete, not when you can't add any more to it, but when you cannot remove anything from it.".

In VT's case, I believe three variations per aircraft is enough (role changes such as F-22 to FB-22 is considered as a separate aircraft in my opinion). When it comes to user-created content, the possibilities are wonderful, and even with the old Desura Alpha, I might be able to shove in my custom campaign I postponed because of more urgent matters. Vector Thrust kept its promise even as an alpha with the possibilities it offers.

The in-game editor needs severe tweaking, though. CopyPaste are nonexistent, there is the annoying key input delay, and the windows need more ergonomy. I don't want to sound rude, but I think my own third party editor still has the upper hand, for the sole, yet obvious exception of not having a 3D display for unit placement (which actually is redundant if one uses it like I do for getting X Y Z coordinates for unit spawnpoints. Since most units will be spawned after the mission begins, it's obvious a system to place a ghost for keeping track of coordinates will be more appropriate).

As a transition between the first and second topic, when it comes to the game's story and setting, this is where I get very, very itchy.

The game's goal:
I've come to realize that TimeSymmetry might not actually be inspiring from Ace Combat for Vector Thrust. Instead, when I look at the art style the game takes, the kind of cutscene approach (the whole visual novel aspect), character design, story design, and story telling, I believe Konami's Deadly Skies series might be a more appropriate candidate for what's on TS's mind. And that, in my opinion, is a bad idea.

Japanese people do not write stories the way we do, and while Ace Combat has obvious Japanese origins, the approach is much more western-ish, at least in the art direction ever since the PS2 days. Us westerners can understand how an Ace Combat game is made, but instead, when it comes to Konami, Deadly Skies (at least, that's the name I know it as in Europe) and more proeminently Metal Gear are something we can't quite grasp.

Japanese games are translated into english, and while it may seem like a doable task of making a game like Deadly Skies, or MGS, it's actually a killswitch. I've seen and witnessed enough to know that the kind of games Konami publishes are fangame-proof franchises. I know only two Metal Gear fangames, which are Christmas themed parodies of MGS, and no faithful fangame has been widely made. The ammount of Source mods about MGS that died without ever seeing a release is astonishing... And I believe this is what awaits us if Vector Thrust tries to stick too hard on cloning Deadly Skies.

I have bought and emulated one of the PS2 games to find out what's so distinct that TS might be trying to replicate with VT. I do believe the visual novel type of briefing, cutscene and storytelling elements are coming from there, intentionally or not. But the point still remains, VT is trying to be something that cannot be properly cloned. I might sound like a fanboy, and I admit it, but an approach closer to Ace Combat is the true way to go, instead of trying to pull off memorable wingmen, with an uselessly detailed and technical squad command menu, because when I compare Deadly Skies and TS's plans when it comes to wingmen, it's obvious there's an uselessly strong emphasis on them, to the point of managing wingmen SP / normal missile reserves and health.

Deadly Skies's characters are stereotypes, and since DS is a rip-off off Ace Combat, it had to find something new and different to make itself look different from Namco's franchise. As a result, there was a much more distinct anime aspect, with ridiculous elements such as using an F-16 as a *space fighter*. Deadly Skies is, in my opinion, not only a tough nut to crack if one wants to fangame it, but also a bad inspiration from the start.

Deadly Skies is Japanese Anime Camp, with honestly Forgettable characters and wingmen instead of being memorable. When it comes to visual design, I'm not against the implementation of a visual novel system. For the cellshaded graphics, however, I have mixed feelings. On one hand, it largely simplifies the game's usermade content process. I can't even begin to imagine how tough it would be to make a realistic looking CFA-44 or ADFX Morgan skin on my own. And I made plenty.
On the other hand, though, I think it's not of everyone's taste, it needs more aces up its sleeve, for instance, the ability to shut down cellshading altogether if one wants to.

Then, TimeSymmetry, and the current situation:
This is critical, for me. I hate to sound rude, as I cannot tell apart whenever I'm being rude or firm. It's something out of my mind. That said, here goes.

I believe TymeSymmetry's approach for their project is extremely risky, and the game is already quite endangered as it is.
There is one absolute thing when it comes to Vector Thrust, and that's the deadline the game is heading to. While I do approve of what's going on with the content, I am however GREATLY worried on what I observed: TimeSymmetry, are you sticking too much to your initial choices and strategy back when the game was still an Indie alpha? This is what I believe I am witnessing.
The initial design choices and approaches still stand, and I believe the story is honestly bad.

I'm being honest, and I won't hide it. The character design, the world design and the story design are not just bad;
the true problem lies with TS's strategy to be a one-man-team like if we were still in Desura's indie alpha version. What I saw leads me to believe TimeSymmetry is excessively protective of his work, of his characters, constructed world and designs, and is too afraid of loosing them through letting other people handle the storyline.
I have been trying *several* approaches when I was trying to make Metal Gear fangames. I made two or maybe three, each with doubtful design choices. I tried to overcome obstacles, used non-adapted software to work on the game, and the second game ( which eventually was recycled into the third ) had a constructed world that faced a similar worldwide tragedy as VT's world, except it was a biologic warfare.

It was an extremely tough lesson for me, as I was shouted upon, scolded, insulted and chased out of two communities I tried to bridge together in my fan-game, namely, Metal Gear and furry stuff. While this is obviously worse than VT's story and world design, both are within the margin of error that I consider to be bad world design and bad story design.

While I would blame TS, I really want to be the kind of forgiving person. I do not believe TS is to blame personally for making VT's world and story the way they are, but I do blame the attempts to stick to the original designs and world design that are threatening the game from being finished at all! The problem, as far as I figured, is that TS is wasting time negociating with others to keep the original ideas of the game. If these choices were ultimately dismissed and let into the hands of others, this time could have been used to give a decent, natively english-written script for voiceactors, and a revised world design.

But then again, I don't blame TS for designing such a world, because I don't believe it's fair to blame somebody for pushing their writing skills, or skills of any kind, beyond what they're capable of. Everyone has a different set of skills, we're not perfect as humans, and due to that, it's by working as a team that we achieve our goals, by filling in each other's gaps in skills. TS's writing and world design skill is... (I REALLY hate to say it, but I'll take responsiblity for saying it) Bad.

Not enough for what a game like Vector Thrust requires. I only know one videogame that managed to come out while made by only one person (with the exception of the comissionned music artist), and that was Dust: An Elysian Tail. People who do this kind of feat are truly unique, but DAET took an ungodly long ammount of time to come out, and it was an indie. Time is what we don't have, and VT is not an indie.

Again, TimeSymmetry, please reconsider. We're not toying with indie game development techniques anymore. HOWEVER, when it comes to everything else, this is where TimeSymmetry truly shines. Ironically, the ammount of dedication and detail poured into the aircraft variants (even if sometimes there are too many of them) is highly respectable. The way the game's architecture is built, the accuracy of details, abilities and flexibility of the game, along with the goal of making it as modder-friendly as possible is why I keep calling it a Pandora Box for Ace Combat stuff. Vector Thrust IS "Ace Combat Infinity", as in, truly infinite instead of a story without begining or end as Project Aces's latest game shows.

This is what I love Vector Thrust for. And this is why I don't want it to fail. Sadly, the publisher we have to deal with expects something to be present in the game upon release. I can't blame them for them, and in fact, I agree with them! Releasing an incomplete game and calling it a SDK / Template is a bad idea. The situation is critical, and we're running out of time. As much as I hate to say it, it's up to TS to drop the indie plans for the game and move on. It saddens me to see that it's the only reason the game's development is clogged up, bottlenecked and going to hit a dead end. Because I believe people may have legit reasons to hate the game upon release if it keeps the story and world it has right now.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to storytelling and world design, but I did experience a major fuck-up and drew some conclusions from it. I don't know if this ever happened to TimeSymmetry, but I'm the kind of person who does want to prevent people from getting it wrong, sad, and disappointed as much as possible.
Not only that, Vector Thrust is headed straight for the slammer if it keeps up this way, this is how I see it. I refuse to see TimeSymmetry's project fail, I refuse to see it die, and I refuse to sit there and do nothing while I can act and shout my heart out on the subject.
So, please, listen to me. I lived through this before, please believe me on word. The game is going to die if we stick to the same choices leading to the same endless situation. This is why my own fangames failed. I tried to be a one-man team, I thought I knew how to make a constructed world, and giving it "what I want it to be", and I thought my ideas were good. I was wrong. TimeSymmetry, you and I aren't so different. please don't do the mistake I did. Please trust others.
You are more skilled than I am, but, maybe you do lack the skill to make good stories and constructed worlds, or maybe you didn't live the experience I went through that may have made you realize there were more skilled people to do the job.

------
On a couple of closing notes:

When it comes to storytelling:
I declare that the storyline I built for my custom campaign for VT to be put to your disposition, as a whole, as template, free to be modified, based upon, reworked, in any shape, length or form if you need something to work from for whatever purpose. This is one short term solution I have in case you need a new story template here and now, if you eventually need to come to such lengths in order to fix VT's development course. I poured my heart, soul and pacified, now tame ideals in that story. I would appreciate if it would be used, as a whole or partially if it were to be the key to make VT achieve its full potential within the deadline, and I would not even ask credit for it. For me, this is what would have needed to be done, and I wouldn't ask for anything more.

When it comes to world design and the "mushroom kingdom":
I suppose not a lot of people know about VT's Mushroom Kingdom. I believe it was briefly mentionned before the Beta phase, so, I believe it's safe to talk about it here. One of the most stressful topics in the debate I took part in was the name, or even the whole presence of the Mushroom Kingdom, a location within VT's "StrangeReal #2". As far as I know and suppose, the Mushroom Kingdom is a B7R-esque arid location nicknamed this way due to how many explosions and tests are performed there. I do not truly know how deep it is anchored in the story TS plans to do, but if I can help improving it, I'll try nonetheless:
The "Mushroom Kingdom" is an extremely bad idea, as a name.

The topic of the name was given much more importance and attention than it needs. The name alone, as TS wanted it to be, is lethal. Nintendo do not take kind of references like these. I do understand the logic behind the name, but, no, this is worth a one-way ticket for the game to be contested, rejected and disapproved of by the publisher, steam, and whatnot in case of a domino effect.

My main concern about VT's world is, again, how uninspired it is. There are things I cannot talk about, but for what I CAN talk about, the whole "planet has gone through a nuclear exchange" is a clichey, a depressing, aging clichey. There is a reason Ace Combat's Strangereal is so loved and cared about by fans, and I think it's the unique setting that made it what it is: No nukes, due in crushing majority to the Belkan War and how terrifying the Seven Pillars were, and the Ulysses Incident.

Ace Combat's world has no nukes, or they're almost nonexistent, and witnessed a natural cataclysm similar to Doomsday. Instead of having nuclear weapons, superpowers resort to using "more planes" and more hardware EVERYWHERE.

I came up with a setting idea that I do believe sounds better than a typical Earth-like cold war nuclear exchange. My suggestion is the following:
A western-like superpower ( such as France, the US, Britain, whatever ) in the 1970's performs underground nuclear tests. A new kind of bomb with higher yeld is tested, everything goes according to plan, except for the blast to form an underground fault, causing a chain reaction that ends up breaking free a nearby, badly charted/probed supervolcano.

A considerable part of the world endures a deathly cloud of ashes and dust, economy is threatened and weakened, but recovers as time passes. The supervolcano thankfully doesn't last as long as analysts feared it would, nuclear weapons and their respective development programmes take the blame worldwide, nukes are officially banned and dismantled. Wether or not the countries actually did keep a few spare in reserve just for plot sake is up to TS.
We still end up into a situation where the world feels a little more "alien" thanks to this catastrophe and the lack of nukes, AND still have the whole refugees & territorial disputes aspect that I have seen as a driving plotpoint in TS's original story, along with a now dormant, forsaken zone to test stuff in, "The Gate", the valley caldera of the now depleted supervolcano. IF it is ever kept.

That is all.

Edited by: Wheaton_Adams

Ironically for me Vector Thrust is basically Unreal Tournament with jets.

Besides, there's still no sign of Deadly Skies-level of campiness and retarded,near-useless whinny wingmen and B-movie grade villains and OMGWTFcakes and F-14GOESSPACEFACE and shitty flight physics yet in there, sans the ridiculous amount of planes/variants that I'm pretty sure most of us doesn't think they would have any *good* use. I'm somehow agree with it; VT is an air combat game, not an interactive military aviation museum; thus gameplay should be the highest priority over plane collection, unless if you confident that you can do the gameplay part well while keep churning out those variants. But seeing how we're getting closer and closer to Q1 2014 release date, I doubt it would work. If I may admit, So far I only see two air combat game/flight sim that can balance between the ridiculous of playable planes/variants* and gameplay+moddability are Oleg's original IL-2 series/not that insanely buggy CloD crap and Jane's Fighters Anthology; which is essentially a 2-in-1 game. But that's in a different level.
*read: more than 32-40 playable planes and variants.

As for my suggestion, TS, if you want to keep your plan on making more variants, you'd better hire a 3D modeller who knows about planes a lot to help you with the job while you can peacefully focus on the others. The second alternative is to release the game with only whatever planes and variants necessary, while the remaining variants can be released as free DLC (as how you plan to release high-speed planes as DLC) along the usual game updates. A good example of this? Wargame: Airland Battle.

The in-game editor needs severe tweaking, though. CopyPaste are nonexistent, there is the annoying key input delay, and the windows need more ergonomy. I don't want to sound rude, but I think my own third party editor still has the upper hand, for the sole, yet obvious exception of not having a 3D display for unit placement (which actually is redundant if one uses it like I do for getting X Y Z coordinates for unit spawnpoints. Since most units will be spawned after the mission begins, it's obvious a system to place a ghost for keeping track of coordinates will be more appropriate).

Mission director mode still needs a lot of work? Sure! I said, it needs a lot of work. No offense, but IMHO it's one of the most unpolished part TS yet to improve since the last patch.

For the cellshaded graphics, however, I have mixed feelings.

TS said you CAN change the shaders, but he yet to explain a detailed how-to.

On the other side, I'm think TS needs to show any other stuff other than more and more plane variants.

My main concern about VT's world is, again, how uninspired it is. There are things I cannot talk about, but for what I CAN talk about, the whole "planet has gone through a nuclear exchange" is a clichey, a depressing, aging clichey. There is a reason Ace Combat's Strangereal is so loved and cared about by fans, and I think it's the unique setting that made it what it is: No nukes, due in crushing majority to the Belkan War and how terrifying the Seven Pillars were, and the Ulysses Incident.

Ace Combat's world has no nukes, or they're almost nonexistent, and witnessed a natural cataclysm similar to Doomsday. Instead of having nuclear weapons, superpowers resort to using "more planes" and more hardware EVERYWHERE.

Story-wise, I'm yet to see more about the background story. But my suggestion is, TS'd better take a look for inspiration of old war-stories or mythologies or such, just like how Zero was mostly inspired by WW2 and Arthurian legend. I don't understand which 'cliche' the NUKE ALL THE THINGS part in an air combat game, unless if you're talking about Mad Max/Fallout-ish aftermath here and that the world have turned into nothing but generic Mad Max/Fallout-ish browny wastelands, now that's so-clichetastic.

But at this era, it's quite difficult to make a good, highly inspiring story that isn't about zombies and political-correct US of A and its ilk vs the world or its exact opposite.

Also I'm afraid to say TS should bump back the release date until it's completely *done™* to avoid any unforseeable disasters.

Optimism-wise, if I might say, in the time like this, in a world where there are way too many fools who keep screaming that anything that isn't soulless hyperrealism trash (with ArmA 3 level of graphics, to add insult and injury) are garbage, you'd better be grateful of what you get. Bonus point for accurate variation designs, unlike those incompetent Ubi$hit done with HAWX or even Wargame: AirLand Battle. A good, moddable arcade flighting like this isn't easy to find anymore.

Edited by: Nergal01

Nergal01 wrote: Besides, there's still no sign of Deadly Skies-level of campiness and retarded,near-useless whinny wingmen and B-movie grade villains and OMGWTFcakes and F-14GOESSPACEFACE and shitty flight physics yet in there,

I'm pretty sure there won't be space-faring F-4Es any time soon, but there's no doubt that thanks to AC3's japanese exclusive Zero Gravity mission will haunt TS to implement a special space flight physics model or something.

However, For near-useless whiny wingmen and characters, I have been able to read a few mission scripts and character layouts, and yeah, they're actually pretty similar. From what I saw back when it was in the alpha, there was a crushing presence of characters, both in cutscenes and missions. We're talking about MGS4-grade of character presence.
And my main worry is that this storytelling choice back from the alpha still seems being forcefed into the game's plan now, and i'm afraid it might end up badly.

Nergal01 wrote: Mission director mode still needs a lot of work? Sure! I said, it needs a lot of work. No offense, but IMHO it's one of the most unpolished part TS yet to improve since the last patch.

Yeah, and this is why I developped a third party mission editor on my own. Both have things each other don't, though.

Nergal01 wrote: Story-wise, I'm yet to see more about the background story. But my suggestion is, TS'd better take a look for inspiration of old war-stories or mythologies or such, just like how Zero was mostly inspired by WW2 and Arthurian legend. I don't understand which 'cliche' the NUKE ALL THE THINGS part in an air combat game, unless if you're talking about Mad Max/Fallout here and that the world have turned into nothing but generic Mad Max/Fallout-ish browny wastelands, now that's so-clichetastic.

As far as I remember, it was something along the edges of a limited Fallout aspect, with two superpowers blowing each other up, but quickly stopping, OR other rival countries deciding not to follow the two big heads that nuked each other. There was a story about refugees, territorial and resource disputes. And something about the player's country being evil, I'm not sure about that last part though.
Still, the world is radioactive, there's this whole "mushroom kingdom" area that's cordonned off and became a testing ground for experimental projects, regardless of the fact there's still people living in there ( see Waldreich Mountainrange with people still living around the crater regardless of more bombs being tossed there to see how much yeld they have )

Nergal01 wrote: But at this era, it's quite difficult to make a good, highly inspiring story that isn't about zombies and political-correct US of A and its ilk vs the world.

I couldn't agree more. A game where we'd have at least NATO as the antagonist would give a much deserved breather.
Spec OPS The Line managed to dismantle the whole AAA aspect while beating it to its own game, though. The only winning move is not to play. If you have such a big grief against AAA mainstream military shooters, I recommend you to give it a try, unless you already did.

( There's also Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker which outright antagonizes the USA with their craze on the cold war during the 1970's and their claims to be peacekeepers of the world while building WMDs. )

I'm pretty sure there won't be space-faring F-4Es any time soon, but there's no doubt that thanks to AC3's japanese exclusive Zero Gravity mission will haunt TS to implement a special space flight physics model or something.

What's wrong with that? I thought it's a good thing for moddability? Moreover, we have like, playable flying organic thing (read: dragons, Touhou might count too) as one of the initially planned feature?

However, For near-useless whiny wingmen and characters, I have been able to read a few mission scripts and character layouts, and yeah, they're actually pretty similar. From what I saw back when it was in the alpha, there was a crushing presence of characters, both in cutscenes and missions.

I see the characters alpha in overall to have no character at all yet so far, hope TS can correct me. Also, broken English et cetera et cetera.

Sadly, in air combat game, the borderline between generic military dudes characters (or worse, B-movie grade actor wannabes) and whiny/emo soldiers are so thin that I think only ACZ cast (save for PJ, more or less) that managed to pull correctly so far.

As far as I remember, it was something along the edges of a limited Fallout aspect, with two superpowers blowing each other up, but quickly stopping, OR other rival countries deciding not to follow the two big heads that nuked each other. There was a story about refugees, territorial and resource disputes. And something about the player's country being evil, I'm not sure about that last part though.
Still, the world is radioactive, there's this whole "mushroom kingdom" area that's cordonned off and became a testing ground for experimental projects, regardless of the fact there's still people living in there ( see Waldreich Mountainrange with people still living around the crater regardless of more bombs being tossed there to see how much yeld they have )

Let me guess, in the end its the usual US of A against them again? If TS want to make a depressive world/story, he should make it as insanely depressive as possible, up to Evangelion-level if its possible.
Also zOMG SO SHOCKING CONSPIRACY plot that made me enjoyed Front Mission and Ace Combat 3 so badly. Please TS, if you know how, but I'm not forcing you if you can't either.

I couldn't agree more. A game where we'd have at least NATO as the antagonist would give a much deserved breather.
Spec OPS The Line managed to dismantle the whole AAA aspect while beating it to its own game, though. The only winning move is not to play. If you have such a big grief against AAA mainstream military shooters, I recommend you to give it a try, unless you already did.

Hey, SOTL was my TPS of the year back then, you know. In this case, the good story is a story that can accomplish its purpose to tell the horrors of war.

Extra: Here's something I think would be a good influence for the story that nobody have tried yet; Romance of the Three Kingdom (yes, THAT thing that made Dynasty Warrior and its ilk) done in Cold War+WW2 style.

Edited by: Nergal01

But let me start of saying that I find the Nergal01 worries are much more relatable.
The Idea of avoiding neglecting gameplay in favor of more aircrafts is the most value point in all this. And yes, that is what I’m pursuing.

As a matter of fact the gameplay is above everything else. And while I initially wanted to change that, the story has become in fact, like most other games, it’s the least prioritized aspect.

With that said, let me start off by addressing the Wealton points, then I’ll go to Nergal01.
@ Wheaton_Adams:

This situation has become so frequent that I’m starting to believe that have an additional role that can be perceived as “defending” the game against BAF’s words.
With that said I don’t want to fill that role, nor do I want to change your opinion.
I just want to ask some question to see if I can understand you mindset better.

About variants, we are already beating a dead horse here. I apologize for not wanting to delve into this point because a lot has been already said.

About this I just want to use this phrase.

Wheaton_Adams wrote: Your artwork is complete, not when you can't add any more to it, but when you cannot remove anything from it.

This doesn’t make any sense, at least in game development context, unless what you really want a pre-alpha version.

The second point is already a dead horse coming from BAF.

I find very awkward how much emphasis BAF has been giving to the story, as if is the most important aspect of the game. And if the story is subpar the entire game is thrash.
However your opinion is completely valid, but aside from your opinion can you please answer some questions?

Wheaton_Adams wrote: TimeSymmetry, are you sticking too much to your initial choices and strategy back when the game was still an Indie alpha?

Can you tell me what are the design choices that you don’t like?
If the game doesn’t have a story? It will be less bad? Or threatening to the development?
And what if I proposed want to make a B grade story? (I bet it won’t be that much different from most other games)

Wheaton_Adams wrote: We're not toying with indie game development techniques anymore.

Please explain me what indie game development techniques have to with the story script? Also I’m still and indie.

Wheaton_Adams wrote: As much as I hate to say it, it's up to TS to drop the indie plans for the game and move on.

Want indie plans? Again, I’m still an indie, but please explain this point.

Wheaton_Adams wrote: TimeSymmetry is excessively protective of his work,

This is something I have difficulty in accepting considering how much freedom I give to the community in participating in the development

Also just food for thought. Iceberg didn’t care for any story, or single player for that matter, They only want a multiplayer death match game with aircrafts.

And finally, you said that if I want to make and visual novel cut scene approach, I should have inspired in Deadly Skies Series instead. But that is a misconception. Inspiration is not a cloning. I very often get the impression that BAF wants to force VT in turning into AC clone.
And that’s probably were the root of all problems. You are probably expecting VT to be AC wanabe. If you are looking for an AC game, you have already plenty of great AC games out there.

Inspiration has nothing to do with following the same footsteps. So, let me be clear, VT does not what to be an AC game clone. That is probably why I’m being approached so many times with your “concerns”, “Ace combat does not have that, so therefore that is bad and should be removed!”

@ Nergal01:

Wealton failed to point out the story or the world don’t follow the usual tropes, with the usual “f*** yeah USA“.

While there is truth in the lack of quality of the draft he has seen, I’m starting to believe that any story will have the same disapproval if it doesn’t follow the same trends of AC.

As for the mission editor, yes still at this moment, while usable I still as some quirks. But like I said above, the priory is the game itself, an improved editor can still be released later.

And I may not be able to return here in the forums today and tomorrow, besides doing a quick peek, so have a nice Christmas

Edited by: timeSymmetry

Actually, I find out that complaining on how the default campaign should be similar to Ace Combat as possible is rather strange remembering you still technically can create your own mission and campaign and basically most things necessary. You don't like the vanilla campaign? Make your own. You don't like the current plane selection? Make your own. And that's how things like ArmA 2 (I remember how unplayable the campaign was back the very first time I played it completely unpatched) still able to live on until now.

But here's that problem again; the mission builder is currently barely functional.

Speaking of, isn't BAF the most conservative Ace Combat fanatic group of ACS?

Edited by: Nergal01

Woah, a lot of text suddenly appeared! ...and I have to do a lot today...
I'll probably return to this topic when there's more time.

Well, one point of contention.

Wheaton wrote: VT is not an indie

While VT might have been picked up by a publisher, that does not necessarily mean it's no longer indie. The line may be blurry, but I seriously doubt that TS is going to be tossing around money like even a well Kickstarted indie title. People tend to have different definitions of indie, but VT seems indie enough for me.

As for story, there are two ways to view it. One is as subservient to the goal, and the other is as the central guide for the gameplay. Since VT is built around making the flight and fighting feel right, as far as philosophy, at this point, it seems like story will take a backseat for now, and it could very well be the weakest link. The thing is, that story is the least expensive/time consuming part to put together. I'm actually pretty antsy to see what the story is like, mainly because I like myself some nice narrative, but I can't really judge sight unseen. Hell, I'd pitch in with my meager skills if I could help develop the story, but I don't know if Times is really looking for extra people now. It takes time to integrate people into a team, and get them situated in a way that they can be effective. You see diminishing returns at a certain point, after all. Given the release date being in three-ish months or less, I think TS might have actually foregone outside help, thinking it would be easier to develop core stuff solo.

Another spiel later when I get back and read through everything more carefully though...

While I can understand the need to point out concerns one can have on the project, I'm wondering if it was really the best call to mention this at all the day before 25th December. Given timeSymmetry's reply that he might not be able to do more than just view the forums during the half of the week in which the holidays occur, I'd say he's being forced into a very precarious situation.

Chances are the post he made earlier isn't going to address everything, and any answers made to his questions won't be able to be acknowledged for at least two days. This will open up a vulnerability to assumptions that the cohesion in the developer-community relationship is flawed, which I've seen in other projects over patch releases taking place on Fridays that introduce bugs that won't be addressed during the weekend where the majority of developers do not work; this thread basically does the same thing in principle.

If anything, this was something that probably should have been addressed either sooner or be waited out until after the holiday week.

Quiet note about why Wargame does its 'DLC' the way it does:

Even though they're free and essentially updates and patches (in fact, it should automatically be added to your account but it's not always), the goal, as MadMat puts it, is pushing Wargame up on Steam's front page. Putting out major content updates as free DLC would be a useful way to utilize the Steam store's natural tendencies.

And careful what you say about variations and accurate models! It may take some complaining and emphasis, but Eugen -does- polish up their models majorly between title updates if it's required.

I managed to find some time to attend to this because I feel bothered in leaving this unaddressed.

thanks for the suggestion Boogie_Van, as a player I also like the idea of a free DLC so I´ll try to follow that idea after release. but I´m not the only one to call the shots, it is possible that a payable DLC may pop up, but it has to worth every penny.

But going back to Wealton´s opinion without brushing it off , I´m being constantly told from his circle that I´m a bad writer. Without devaluing their opinion I didn't believe it at first, but after being told so many times, I´m starting to accept it.

But if that's the case, then that leads to a recurring question. why not add a story from the community? Because I personally believe this plain wrong.

Even if the player does not want any payment, which I think is unacceptable, the campaign story is directly connected to the gameplay so that isn´t something that can be easily outsourced. that leads to one flaw that I acknowledge in myself, I´m usually not keen In outsourcing content. This is because I'm still a garage developer so I don't delude myself in believing that obviously I´m a good manager and everything will go fine. This mostly comes that I had plenty of bad experiences in outsourcing and this comes back way before that the company has been born, so unless there is no other way around I prefer in-house production.

This was to contextualize my mindset and give a background to my decisions.
Also, a bit irrelevant but I´m not alone, 5 people (without counting the music composer) already helped or are still helping in developing the game.

Now going back again to his concerns. I would have been a lot more troubled if your worries were related to gameplay.

As for aircrafts variants, again, sorry but if you still insist in that, then I'm sure that you probably missing something about the game´s goals.

Then as for your greatest issue, the story, I don't have any other alternative than to share it here a story script that I plan to add (that I´m still not sure if it will be the one included in the vanilla release) and see if others think the same as you.

But, before that let me point two things in the text you mention place I call "Mushroom kingdom" in the game´s world. The first is to bring up how many times you draw a comparison to Ace combat. you even call this place "StrangeReal #2". Sure, there is nothing wrong with that, but again, I don´t want to make an ace combat clone.

other point is the name itself, I´m still surprised how many words have been spent around this matter, when I always said that the name can be changed for a better one. And the purpose is not to sound lethal, but disrespectful for the place.

So moving on, the following text is a quick draft of the story, it´ll be posted as-is before having any revision, which probably will contain several typos.

In this texts will be included the world background, campaign story background and story synopses.

To better contextualize the story here is a map where it will take place.

If someone is interested in the story or want to see how bad is my writing feel free to read it.

Mushroom kingdom back-story:

Several decades ago, there was a group of very prosperous nations that their sole existence was deterrence itself.

This allowed them to pass unscarred to the prevalent wars in that continent. I was said at that time, if those small nations united, they could conquer the whole continent in a single week.

Obviously that was just popular belief, but it wasn’t that far from truth, and the proof is that almost happened. There was a great conflict that forced most of the nations of that continent to reignite their hatred.

This war dragged so long that even the most victorious nations started to decay, and it was in that context that this, up to then, neutral nations seized the opportunity and entered the war. Without much effort they were rapidly conquering the surroundings.

However the lands they gained were devastated and burned from the ongoing war. That wasn’t much of a problem since these nations only cared for their natural resources. These nations while there were very advanced, their technology demanded high resource consumption and their small size forced them to rely on the natural resources of other nations, and with the existing war their reliable trade routes were cut off.

As their conquest expanded, these nations were unable to manage the decaying and poor occupied population. This led to very strict rules and deprivations to these habitants what were already lived with various issues.

The word of this situation passed thru the battle front and reached the leaders of the nations that still stand against this conquest. Shocked to hear how their inhabitants were being treated by the conquering nations, and how striking contrasts the people of this conquering nations lived, with so much luxury that blindfolded them from the harsh reality that was happening around them.
In an unprecedented event, all that could stand united in a thin and very frail alliance to make the final attempt to overcome this enemy. This attempt ultimately resulted in a last suicide attack that by some miracle, they managed to make these nations temporarily fall on their knees. Without a second thought, the weak and almost conquered nations unleashed the entire nuclear arsenal that they could use in this window of opportunity and bombarded these overpowered nations with countless of bombs.

And this was the end of the war.

In the aftermath, after the definitive victory against this amazing enemy, the fragile alliance quickly broke up and stated to address their own national issues. But other problem arise, all the survivors of that bombardment started to leave their nation to find a patch of healthy land. This created a large exodus, however the surrounding nations were unable to integrate so many people, not their were willing to.

Since this war the resent for these nations grew larger every passing day. And as the years passed, the deprivations of the conquered nations were slow in healing, as the populations staved, they were fueled with more the resent for the aggressors.

To stop the exodus once and for all, it was devised a construction of a large frontier to physically contain all the population of those once powerful nations. No one opposed, and soon after all the communication and trade lines were cut from the people inside these imposed walls.

These events were around 50 years ago.

Sometimes it is heard that there is a war going on inside, but that doesn’t matter, a regular habitant of this continent doesn’t know or doesn’t care.
Some joke they are probably fighting with stones and sticks.

With the space age it has become easier for the defense agencies to monitor these lands.
But is it really alright to just monitor these enclosed nations from afar?

Campaign back-story:

I'd be glad to give the story a once-over and make suggestions and/or alterations. Writing is more my strong point than editing, but I'll certainly try.

OH HERE COMES THE NINJA EDIT.

Edited by: Boogie_Van

In the mushroom kingdoms, alter all this decades, most of the nations skillfully manage to preserve the strength needed to persist. Although public enclosed, as the years passed, and the escape’s attempts had become a rare occurrence, the boundary patrol started to weaken and become more neglectful.

Although there is no registry of any inhabitant leaving this cage, there were plenty of cases of outside people enter and leave this zone.
In this groups there were several humanitarian campaigns, although their help in the grand view was almost insignificant, they manage to help some local population.

Nevertheless, the other side of the coin of this entry permission, although not publicly know, there were plenty of cases where mercenaries and weapons dealers entered this zone with the aim of making easy profit, as this land is where anything can happen and no one cares.

One nation of the mushroom kingdom, Guernei, , after several decades enclosed in the imposed cage, manage to sustain to a fair degree the quality of like to his populace. However after so much time in this condition, besides health problems and contamination issues, food and potable water has started to scarce.
Even after the famished people started to eat contained food, that didn’t stopped the ever-growing starvation.

The leaders of this nation were informed; that at best, with heavy rationalization of resources the nation could hold itself ten more years. After that there will be no more food left for anyone.
The situation was grim, although the nation managed to modernize in certain fields, that recovery made the population grow again, imposing a great strain in the food recourses.

With that in mind, the leaders could only thought in one solution; they had to fight for food.
Guernei, is located in the boarder of this kingdoms, with the land outside the boundary being owned by the now powerful Koazia.
Well aware of what would happened if it attempted to brake trough this cage, Guernei instead set his eyes in the other lands in of this realm.

Several wars happened before in this zone for various reasons, surprisingly, these handful of half death nations were always ready for more battles and when most expecting they always had some amazing card in their sleeve.

But, Guernei wasn’t worried about that, because it was sure that would be win either way, whether it would conquer the whole mushroom kingdoms or lose the war. There will be deaths and the surviving people would have more food for them to live for longer.

In secret the entire nation mobilized for that, the preparation took years, but they were sure that the results would payoff.

-----------
Campaign story:

The story starts with Guernei almost reaching the other corner of the mushroom kingdom. Derkelles is being invaded and Badya and Argulia already fallen. The nations that still stand are Mautique that is being able to hold from the beginning, Cassia that at the moment is losing territory at a rapid rate and Derkelles, currently the defending country with the best condition.

The player, takes the role of a female pilot from Derkelles that was rushed out from the training to defend her country, with the call name of SILVER.

Guernei, not worried about Derkelles and overjoyed with the progress made recently in Cassia, decided to crush the last and strongest opposition there by to focusing most of the assets against that nation, leaving a weak force to invade Derkelles.

However this force was enough to subdue the first defense lines of Derkelles.
But the flow of the war starts to change with the player’s participation; Derkelles manages to successfully intercept and defend itself against recent attacks.

Guernei, now worried about this change send stronger assets to erase the problem. While the player manages to win from every confrontation, the defense line of Derkelles is broken again and now Derkelles is thrown to his impending doom.

While this was happening, in the shadows a new entity was taking shape.

Oblivious of this, the player, is forced to make a last stand in one of the most important cities.
This fight was hopeless and the outcome was certain, but thanks to unexpected backup from Cassia it was possible to see a ray of hope and oppose against Guernei forces.
But in order to win then had to defeat one last threat, a large super weapon that was amazingly powerful.
It was all thanks to the skills of the player, the giant crumbled and the city was able to breathe again.

After those events, it was on the ground that the player is surprised to see that her actions were viewed with so much praise that it was immediately recruited to lead a nearly created force to oppose Guernei.
That force was a mysterious group called de Faceless.

Despise all this nations were losing all they had, all attempts to make a temporary alliance was always rendered fruitless. Frustrated with that outcome, several intellectuals and important people from all mushroom nations joined hands and in secret, decided to make an entity that could pass through all the international politics that tie the hand of their own forces. This was only possible because the members of the faceless grew so quickly and were deeply involved of the national cogs; that grant them the ability and power to allow this to happen. Publicly this was not know, it was feared that the public could not accept such entity to exist and it may hinder in their plans against Guernei.

This situation was informed to the player, and it let her know that officially she would still be a Derkelles pilot, whoever for here on it would secretly serve the faceless and act on their behalf and it may also require her to act undercover.

Thanks to this union, the player gained more resources and was able to finally counterattack against Guerney. Despise all the amazing aces and weapons the player had to fight, she was able to recover the whole Derkelles again, solidifying her status as the spearhead of the Faceless.
Guerney no longer had any doubts that she was the biggest threat in this war, so it pulled all they could from the other lines and throw them against the payer.

But to their terror, despise some surprises and fallbacks from the player, she manages to overcome all opposition and now she was quickly dashing towards the capital of Guernei.
Guernei fought with all that it had, but in the end it fallen.

The player came back to her country as an hero .
But the party didn’t last much. Soon after, she was contacted by a member of that faceless saying the war wasn’t over, and they would need her services again.

Then she was informed, that the Faceless uncovered the truth the behind the conflict.
All this war was provoked by external forces, the both powerful Koasia and Albarn used these nations to make a proxy war.
That was why all these decaying nations had so much modern weapons. At the time they haven’t found what was the reason for this, but there was no doubts the world outside was toying with them.

They have no contact with the exterior, so they can’t be sure, but they have already found external spies infiltrated in all nations. So they can’t shake off the possibility that they are being monitored and manipulated by the external nations’ whims.
And that’s where her work comes in, there are spies deeply rooted in Mautique and Cassia that needed to be removed.

The whole faceless organization will prepare a scenario where it will be publicly acceptable to attack these targets, but she must be ready to engage some innocents in the process.
While bit overblown by this, the player comply. But for this to happen she had to lose her personal identity, as now will be deeply involved in the faceless actions.

Her death was crafted as a car accident; she watched her death ceremony as a war hero from afar on television in luxury hotel in Argulia. With a new Identity and now referred as: VIPER
After that, it succeeded a series of missions were she had to strike some head of state or an important person. However she noticed that the scenario was crafted in such a way that these nations were forced to use their strongest weapons against her. Though with skill, she always managed to take them down and accomplish the objective.

But there is no doubt, that she always felt that the same goal would be achieved more easily and simpler means that wouldn’t even need her help.

As time passed she felt that the Faceless were everywhere, as it is secret organization, she didn’t knew exactly who was in and who was not, but there was no doubt the we felt there where present everywhere, and she was especially conscious that they were always watching her every move.

Then inevitably the information about the Faceless was leaked, and the public came to lean the existence of this entity. But surprisingly, the Berkelle was the only nation that made uproar.
Soon after, a series of information came to the public, proving how some of the Berkelle leaders were tied to the Koasia.

Despise of that, and while they still maintained the public opinion on their side, they declared war against this organization that at that moment covered most of the Mushroom kingdoms, with their fist actions being invading Badya. Berkelles was sure of their victory, considering their recent success history and how there were the least scarred nation in the recent war.

To stop this invasion, they relied again in the player. But this time she had to fight her past allies. Despise of that she succeeded.

Then, when it was obvious that there was no other choice but to conquer the capital of Berkelles in order to clean the nation of the Koasia’s spies, the player accepted the job.
Berkelles used every weapon they had, but despise of that, the player own.

And with that, the faceless secretly conquered the entire mushroom kingdom.
------

For the ones who read it, tell me if the story is acceptable and worth pursuing or it will just make people have legit reasons to hate the game?
Also I acknowledge the fact that even if you like this synopsis it is still possible to have a bad execution and result in a poor story.

But I appreciate that Wheaton shared is concerns, and I will always willing to hear others.

Again have a happy Christmas everyone.

timeSymmetry wrote:
------

For the ones who read it, tell me if the story is acceptable and worth pursuing or it will just make people have legit reasons to hate the game?
Also I acknowledge the fact that even if you like this synopsis it is still possible to have a bad execution and result in a poor story.

But I appreciate that Wheaton shared is concerns, and I will always willing to hear others.

Again have a happy Christmas everyone.

If I sent you a version with my corrections and suggestions, where should I send it off to?

Post here, anything related to this should be posted here.

timeSymmetry wrote:
The second point is already a dead horse coming from BAF.

I find very awkward how much emphasis BAF has been giving to the story, as if is the most important aspect of the game. And if the story is subpar the entire game is thrash.

We concentrate on the story so much because that's the thing we've been dealing with the most on since I contacted you last year. That's what the BAF is to you primarily: voice actors, we deal with the story, and we want to make sure it's the best it is, and we want to help in that regard.

If you're saying you don't want our support in that sense, that's fine.

Everything else regarding the plane list, game mechanics, work ethics, etc, was just members from within the BAF voicing their opinions and thoughts, not the BAF as a whole, however the opinions are roughly the same with their issues and I won't bother you by reiterating them.

We don't comment on anything else because you've already chosen your path as well, perhaps that's why it might be 'awkward' to you.

Edited by: flyawaynow

Wheaton isn't BAF. Don't associate him with us.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think the synopsis for the campaign is pretty decent. At least acceptable for me. How it is delivered will be pretty critical though.

Also I don't think the name Mushroom Kingdom should be used though.

Koeben wrote:
Also I don't think the name Mushroom Kingdom should be used though.

This. Might want to find a decent alternative name, preferably in Latin/German.

timeSymmetry wrote: Post here, anything related to this should be posted here.

Alright: Mediafire.com That's a Word 2003 file, sorry, I hate utilizing the new stuff, but it's a far more convenient set of tools to edit text. If anyone can't open it, go ahead and grab Open Office.

There's very little point to make outright corrections as the synopsis is in no way bad or unappealing by modern gaming's standards; given a little mission divergence and etc, it would be a breath of fresh air in my opinon. As you pointed it out, that doesn't necessarily mean that it stands up in detail, but if I read something similar after the game was released, I would be intrigued. It's very Ace Combat-like, but it fills a major lack of anything actually taking place in Strangereal as a recent title with the exception of Infinity (and that does/doesn't? I don't know, I'm not paying attention until it's released), which as of this moment, does not sound like it's going to do well with its F2P model.

Whilst I can't really make any further suggestions for additions to the plot (It's seriously pretty alright, really, but like you said, that doesn't mean much without execution), I do suggest you check out and play through World in Conflict; without spoiling anything, this is how you make a game's story interesting when it revolves around inherently less than interesting ideas to most people like boring, green military crap. Sure, plenty of people might not look at it that way, but it's best to maintain appeal to everyone. I should note that it's the Russian campaign that takes the cake.

Nergal01 wrote:

Koeben wrote:
Also I don't think the name Mushroom Kingdom should be used though.

This. Might want to find a decent alternative name, preferably in Latin/German.

Without a better suggestion, I'm hesitant to critique it, because I almost find it humorous, but, a different name would be better.

Edited by: Boogie_Van

Hello again.

I apologize for extremely late response time. Christmas eve and all. Speaking of which, I apologize for posting this almost one day prior to christmas, I should have taken that into consideration. I'm sorry.

I haven't got time to read everything, but what I saw did change my opinion on quite a few points.

First of all, as Cayce said, I'm not technically part of BAF. TS, if you expected me to pair up with BAF because both them and I expected VT to be like Ace Combat, that's likely conjucture. As far as I can possibly know, I believe lots of people expected VT to be more like AC, and I believe Air Force Delta's relatively lower exposure is to blame, not you, me or anybody else.

As Koeben said ( actually, pretty much everyone said what I was going to think when I read this topic after so many replies ), after I read a bit of VT's synopsis, yes: the story seems acceptable, but YES, how it will be delivered will be the critical point.

(I still believe the Mushroom Kingdom name should be changed)

And why do I suddenly believe the story is decent? Because the fact you ( TS ) mentionned that Iceberg's main concern are gameplay and multiplayer. If the publisher believes the story / lore is secondary / low priority and isn't a key point of the deadline, then it completely turns my worries around.

Considering that Iceberg is behind Killing Floor, a game I spend a lot of time on, I can now draw similarities and understand the publisher's point even more. As I said, knowing this makes me almost completely reconsider my worries about the game.

( When it comes to multiplayer, I've been re-playing through AC Joint Assault and gave the co-op a heavy re-examination, and I believe co-op should be the main focus of multiplayer, not necessarly campaign co-op, but also other modes. players vs CPUs for points, conquest mode, two player teams vs CPUs for points, usual multiplayer VS bots rules and whatnot ( see TF2, AC Infinity itself and all, for example ) ).

Knowing Iceberg with Killing Floor, and VT's plans for moddability, plus the Steam Workshop if the game comes out on steam, I might now have a greatly different perspective on the game.
TimeSymmetry, I'm sorry for what I said above. What I was worried about lost a lot of its meaning because I didn't knew exactly about the publisher's stance on the story. It is true that I shared a similar point of view on VT being more like AC than AFD, but that's what I expected VT to be ever since I found out about it, and I didn't even know about BAF back then. If it makes you feel any better, the case is solved on my end. The situation the game was in DID lead me to express my worries, yes. Communication and debates are vital, and your revelation brought some light, quite a bit. In a way, I believe it was worth it.

Please do not loose focus on the project's priorities. The whole aircraft variety is, as I said, a noble goal, but it might get in the way of what the publisher expects from you. Now that my concerns about the story are solved due to how I over-estimated its importance, all I beg of you is to know your priorities, get a good pace.

My number one reason for my interest in Vector Thrust is no doubt its moddability. I did expect a great AC-esque story, yes. Maybe this won't be done when the game will be ready. Maybe there won't be one. Maybe an alternative official campaign more in an AC fashion will come after the game's release. Maybe user-made content will be more AC-esque than the official one. For me, it doesn't matter for as long as everyone get what they hoped for, and I'll try to help and do what I think is right for that purpose. This is why I work on third party tools for your game.As you said, my mission editor's greatest strength was that it would run independently from the game, which is good.

If I compare VT to KF, KF has changed quite a lot ever since its first release. The Pyro/Firebug class was severely lacking weapons, the ammount of maps was ridiculously small, and several other disbalances in the game. Now, look at it today. There's plenty of guns to kill zeds with, there's tons of maps, a variety of gamemodes, and the game gives me epic evenings when I play it with my buddies and watch how everyone hilariously die after a major fuck-up.

After saying that, worrying on how "bad" VT would be one way or another while it's not even done is now largely redundant. It will obviously be "bad" compared to how it will be months, or years after its release, after tons of content, both official and user-made will have come to enrich the experience.

There are now chances I might turn optimistic. Besides "Know your priorities", I don't have anything else to say for now.

Edited by: Wheaton_Adams

Boogie_Van wrote:

Without a better suggestion, I'm hesitant to critique it, because I almost find it humorous, but, a different name would be better.

My main concern about the name is that it is used in Mario games.

Were there something to be concerned about anything in regard to the game, I honestly am most troubled about the tendency for us to see released titles which are functionally still in beta. Whilst I understand and wholly support the idea of continuing to improve the game beyond release, it's worrying when you do have games that are 'released' yet still in beta, producing content that's arguably in alpha stages of production *cough* Bohemia Interactive *cough*.

Killing Floor may have been improved upon vastly since release, but at release, it was by no means incomplete in my opinion. I hope Vector Thrust will be in similar condition: a product that is most definitely ready for consumption, but is still improved upon. I really think that's probably the only thing that concerns me about the game, as what I see makes me quite impressed, including the willingness to throw the plot at us so we can provide some suggestions.

It's also very cool to have a solid platform of a game for the user to create their own content as well as utilize existing items, but another thing is that would be beneficial to keep in mind that certain things are best left in the hands of the developer to make possible. Consider All in ArmA for ArmA 3. Yes, BIS released all of their content so players could readily port it over to ArmA 3; however, they didn't do things like create PhysX profiles for the armored vehicles, something which is necessary for them to feel like more than props that can slip and slide around on their own. Sure, modders might be able to figure it out, someday, but it's an issue that could be quite readily fixed by BIS. Having an impressive platform for a game to rely on player driven content, it has to have its own wide range of usable assets so that everyone can find ways to keep things fresh without having to resort to mods so readily, like Trackmania users do.

Koeben wrote:

Boogie_Van wrote:

Without a better suggestion, I'm hesitant to critique it, because I almost find it humorous, but, a different name would be better.

My main concern about the name is that it is used in Mario games.

Why do you think I find it funny? Somewhere, in the back of my head, there's images of radiated and deformed Toads flying jets. It's not classy, no, but it's funny.

Edited by: Boogie_Van

I'm not technically part of BAF

I think some of us (former) ACS lurkers already know you're never a member of BAF either.

Because the fact you ( TS ) mentionned that Iceberg's main concern are gameplay and multiplayer. If the publisher believes the story / lore is secondary / low priority and isn't a key point of the deadline, then it completely turns my worries around.

I'm not saying that lore/plot is a second-tier priority, but the truth is, even only a few of us who care about story since AC6 as most of us are too busy doing multiplayer. How many hypeminds played Ace Combat for story anyway?

Considering that Iceberg is behind Killing Floor, a game I spend a lot of time on, I can now draw similarities and understand the publisher's point even more. As I said, knowing this makes me almost completely reconsider my worries about the game.

Do you know that KF originally began its life as Unreal Tournament 2k4 mod? So far their most notable releases other than KF are 4X games that people consider to be subpar or mediocre (Endless Space and Stardrive).

My number one reason for my interest in Vector Thrust is no doubt its moddability. I did expect a great AC-esque story, yes. Maybe this won't be done when the game will be ready. Maybe there won't be one. Maybe an alternative official campaign more in an AC fashion will come after the game's release. Maybe user-made content will be more AC-esque than the official one. For me, it doesn't matter for as long as everyone get what they hoped for, and I'll try to help and do what I think is right for that purpose. This is why I work on third party tools for your game.As you said, my mission editor's greatest strength was that it would run independently from the game, which is good.

My only hope is that, someone make a good enough campaign so that it become the game seller itself, just like how DayZ to ArmA 2.

Whilst I understand and wholly support the idea of continuing to improve the game beyond release, it's worrying when you do have games that are 'released' yet still in beta, producing content that's arguably in alpha stages of production *cough* Bohemia Interactive *cough*.

Here's something everyone should take notice of very seriously. Nobody wants THAT X-BOMBARebirth incident to repeat itself all over again.

For the replacement of the mushroom kingdom name, I'm thinking something in line of sanctuary (Sanctuary of No Hope?).

Edited by: Nergal01

I'm curious at how the timeline mentioned in the plot connects with the other campaigns? Will there be any connection between campaigns? Does the 1980's era campaign take place during the continental war that was mentioned?

Edited by: Koeben

@flyawaynow and @CayceG sorry for assuming that Wheaton was part of BAF, I don't know that defines this group or it´s extension.
But that assumption was not made with any ill intent.

@Wheaton_Adams, I believe I finally understood your mindset. correct me if I´m wrong, but like the and Ace combat game, were the campaign is the central aspect of the single player "experience", you assumed that Vector Thrust would follow the same path. And by that you started to become worried when you noticed that the campaign hasn't progressed as it would have been expected for something to fitting this role.
Am I right?

if it is, then I completely understand your reaction.

The thing is that while the Ace Combat as little to offer for a solo player besides the campaign, and because of that, it is essential that the campaign gives a very solid experience, the VT in other hand, has plenty of other alternatives besides that campaign, meaning that this modes carries much less weight than in AC.

This is intentional because again, differently than the AC series, instead of having a single campaign being the flag ship, I want to offer a collection of stories that each can individually explore a fraction of the game´s content and mechanics.

But, I believe that you even with misaligned expectations, have all the right they say what you did and I apologize for not being quick in understanding your view.

As for the multiplayer, there's a lot that can be done. At the moment my priority is to offer a solid basic experience (deathmacth) at the time of release. But I´ll be here to hear any suggestions how to improve and expand this mode, as I said before there are here already a lot of great ideas for other modes to add, so I´m sure I´ll have a plenty of material to work with.

@ Nergal01 about the story not being the main priority, I would be lying if I said it was, if that was the case, (as I believe) the story had to be developed first before writhing any code, but as you witnessed the gameplay and mechanics were instead the first to be developed.

This doesn't mean it can't be story driven game, or the story will be some filler, but the narrative wasn't for sure the main priority of this project, it was the gameplay.

@ Boogie_Van
thanks for your suggestions, I loved the approach you used to point your corrections .
They were very helpful including highlighting the sub plots. But I have to decline the extension of the story, because I really want to stop there. What you added is the natural progression and it´s exactly where I want to go. But I want to leave that for another campaign with a different point of view, were the faceless will be an important antagonist faction and the protagonist of this story will also appear as major antagonist, being referred as "Viper", or "The Faceless Viper"

@Koeben
the continental war that was mentioned in the background will take place around the 60´s. at the moment there is no story planed for that event. The 3 campaigns that are planned will take place, one around the 80´s in that highlighted zone on the upper part of the map.
Other around 2003~2005 that involve the bottom left nations and the other that was mentioned here will take place around the 2020's.

As they take place at very different times and zones there will be no direct connection to each other but there will be some hits that give a nod the campaign that came before, or some events that help contextualize the reason for the following war

Now, as for the "Mushroom kingdom" what I should call this place instead? suggestions are welcome. I´m not expecting to everyone to agree, but the first name to have some support will be the one to go.

Thinking again, I need three names, the true formal name for that zone. (a real world example: Iberian Peninsula)
No suggestions so far

A disrespectful name, that is used by some biased outsiders.
(this is where a name like " Mushroom kingdom" would fit. it should be something that joke about the place in an unkind way)
some suggestions I was given so far:
The sink
Wasteland.

A very respectful name that the insiders of this zone like to call:
some suggestions I was given so far:
The Kingdom
Sanctuary.

A point I want to highlight, be careful if you use a name in a language other than English, because after the game is released, other players will be quick to assume that place will be based in the same nation. And this being a crapsack world, there are plenty of factions with have questionable actions, it may be disrespectful to the real country be subjected to such a comparison.

I choose to make a fictional world, because I wanted to avoid the usual pro USA story, but at the same time I didn´t wanted to be disrespectful in my portrayals to any nation including USA.

Edited by: timeSymmetry