AscencionSupremacy - high-commitment + AND + newbies Thread - Dominions 3: The Awakening

General Game Information
AscencionSupremacy: Llamaserver.net

Game type: high-commitment, AND (Anonymous No Diplomacy), for newbie players, llamaserver PBEM.

Participants (7) (in alphabetic order):
Boredoffester
Brihaspati
Democritusparadise
Lukasr
Radiator
Ran88dom99
Tsuji_M

Nations (in alphabetic order) :
Abysia
Agartha
Helheim
Hinnom
Lanka
Marverni
Ulm

Diplomacy: NO-DIPLOMACY
Absolutely NO DIPLOMACY is allowed. This means you MAY NOT contact other players in this game regarding this game in any way, shape or form. Do not use the in game message system, do not PM, do not email, ICQ whatever, do not thread banter. Do not send items, gold, gems.
More details about no-diplomacy code of conduct is here: <todo: insert list of rules for no-diplomacy game>

Anonymity: game is ANONYMOUS
More details about anonymous games' specifics is here: <todo: insert a link on clause about anonymous games>

Skill level: NEWBIE
New to dominion3 multiplayer; inexperienced players; those who played for a while, but had problems to be one of victory-competing nation in newbie games.
If you consistently reach the end of newbies games as one of largest superpowers - you are not newbie. So

Expected Commitment Level: HIGH-COMMITMENT

High-commitment are the games that expect a high level of commitment from the players who play in them. They are usually fairly serious games, played by players who take the game seriously, high commitment games are intended to be highly competitive games where every player is expected to commit to putting in the time and effort required to play to the best of the ability for the whole duration of the game. This is commonly known as fighting to the end. Every player is expected to be trying to win, or should that not be a realistic option, they are expected to survive for as long as possible, and cause as much damage and inconvenience to their enemies as possible.
If you found yourself far behind leaders and victory doesn't seem to be feasible at all - just set another goal before yourself, and let it be ambitious, challenging, yet realistic. Whether it will be a revenge to offender of your nation, or an aspiration to secure survivance of the nation you play with or something else.

Delays: DELAY-TOLERANT

Delays are given when the necessity for it occurs.
It is however players' liability to keep care of their free time and report to admin as soon as there are doubts that they'll be able to finish their turn within time. (I'll keep care to check situation before deadline for double ensurance, but it is better not to rely on it).
And such reports are to be made as early as possible (since if you send a panic PM that delay is needed a hour before deadline, it is quite possible that admin is not sitting in Internet constantly monitoring forum/mail). Whether you need particular delay, or whether you are unsure you'll have enough time - it is better to let admin know.
Players are expected to receive delays, however they shouldn't abuse this opportunity (at the same time holidays/vacations/illness/etc are proper reasons). Excessive delays may cause other players to lose enthusiasm.

Roll-back policy: roll-backs are a measure reserved for very exceptional cases. It won't be applied in usual cases (stales, turns not processed by llamaserver unless it is massive, etc).

Clarification: Roll-backs as something what fixes problem with one of problems are against the competitive spirit of the whole game since they require all other players to repeat their turn (but with knew knowledge of what has happened previous time).
What is even worse roll-backs have chances to irrecoverably damage the game in a whole (and this damage won't be obvious instantly, so when it will become known, it will be too late to do anything).
So as a rule of thumb rollbacks won't be used.

It is players duty to inform admin about your possible stale/delay if it is possible.
It is also a good habbit to check llamaserver's page a few minutes later your turn was sent to verify that turn is received (llamaserver's information is updated once per several minutes). There were very very rare cases when turn sent was not processed for some reason, while players who sent it were certain that they did their work. There were very very rare cases when postpone command was accepted by server but didn't processed as well. In either case - it won't harm to check games' status after few minutes.

Victory Conditions: hold 4 capitals for 3 consecutive turns or by mutual concession.
'Mutual concession' should be clarified here, since the game is no-diplomacy and anonymous.
Players willingness to concede the game in a whole to some nation, players opinions that game is already defined, assumptions and guesses about nation's chances, etc are not to be made publically, but only privately via PM to admin. If you have such guesses and opinions, feel free to share it, but to admin only.

Admin: Chelubey: Indiedb.com

Number of Players: 7

Age: EA

Mod: CBM 1.96 - Z7.invisionfree.com

Map: Streamlands (93+10), fixed starts Z7.invisionfree.com

Nation selection procedure: similar to Z7.invisionfree.com (all players who have contested nation are shifted to the next preferred nation in their lists)

Other Game Settings:
Independent Strength: 6 (not default)
Score Graphs - open
Hall Of Fame - 15 (! it is not standard option!)
Re-Naming - ON <Insert a link on a clause about renaming convention>
All other settings are default.

Edited by: chelubey

I'm signing up, and voting for MA as the era.

(If you don't mind the question... does it happen in no-diplomacy games that two nations that encounter each other stay at peace, despite the inability to communicate, or does everyone just generally attack everyone else on sight?)

Edited by: Radiator

Perfect question.
Diplomacy as a communication (of any kind) if forbidden (strictly).
It is forbidden to contact others (by any means) to use in-game messaging to send anything.

However true diplomacy remains (in a not-typical sense of this world, a very extensive meaning).
True diplomacy is not about contacting, formulating and considering proposals - it is about guessing others motives and intentions, and using it within your own plans. And this is something what is open in no-diplomacy games.
You don't negotiate, but you extensively investigate situation around, everything what takes place in a world.

As Machiavelian diplomacy games are a step forward from stupid obligatory-diplomacy, no-diplomacy games are a huge step even further forward.
Do you really rely on NAPs signed in Machiavelian diplomacy games or you realize that this treaty is beneficial both for you and a nation you interact, so it is unlikely they are going to break it? Now remove the second part, remove the "treaty", remove the communication totally, and you'll get no-diplomacy game.
No-diplomacy games are certainly not about attacking everyone else on sight (however nothing prevents to do it, and some will probably do).
Even more - in no-diplo games I participated the degree of border tensions didn't differ that much from machiavelian diplomacy games.

In some sense no-diplo games have surface and shallow diplomacy banned, but the very core of diplomacy remains - reading others intentions, guessing their plans, acting according to it.
For instance your neighbours average-sized squad appeared on your borders, captured one of your provinces and went back to their terrain. What are you supposed to do with it:)? Will you leave it without consequences and do nothing (maybe it was something your neighbour expected - to take a province for free relying that you won't launch full scale war because of it - but maybe not)? Will you send some average punishment squad? Will it take only this province or intrude to their lands and take one province as well? More? Will you start full scale intrusion?

I should underline, that abscence of communication is the absolute paramount for no-diplo games.
What was said above may seem as an neglection for formal part of diplomacy in favour of that "guessing/reading intentions/planning/etc".
The latter is often more important than the former indeed.
However negotiation is extremely powerful as well.

I brought this sample recently somewhere, I'll repeat it still, it should be quite intresting and illustrative.
In Randoobies game I was MA Marignon with Cold3 dominion. One of my neighbours was Abysia. I'd say Abysia was the easiest possible enemy for me in a whole (both cold3 dominion, ability to defend somewhat against their fire magic, at the same time ability to coutner that, and later anti-demonic summons, and I had indirect access to water).
So I decided that my grand strategy plan should also somehow work in Abysia favour. That is it is within my interests to have Abysia as one of last survivors whether I reach lategame myself. (The place/resources not occupied by Abysia will be occupied by someone else, against whom I don't have that much relative advantages).

Abysia was involved in war with TC, another neighbour of me. Neither side could prevail.
There were several other neighbours.
To the end of expansion phase I had an opportunity to choose the target for my attack.
I decided to go against TC (and that idea that it is better to make Abysia as one of my opponents was one of the reasons for such a choice).
War against TC didn't went as good as I hoped, but eventually I was overwhelming them.
And how about Abysia? Were they satisfied with their part of TC lands? Were they happy that TC's armies withdrew from Abysia-TC front and went to defend their capital?
No! They attacked me instead!
Assassinated my commanders, and retook TC's provinces, and attacked my line of supply.
I turned the other cheek and again, and again.
It seems I've get a few levels of tolerance and sufferance that time.
I cursed and thought when will Abysia's player finally realise that I don't fight him at all?
If he tried to swallow TC's lands occupied by me - it was not as bad. But when he started march against my capital, I realized that war is inevitable.
Marignon fought Abysia almost to the very end of the game.
Ulm conquered half the world meanwhile and won the game.
After the game was finished Abysia player told that he thought that Marignon won't stop on TC and Abysia will be next. He didn't see the point in waiting that and striked firtst.

The point of this sample is that even a very few words shared in no-diplomacy game can easily end in game-changing results.
Exchange in a very few words could lead Marignon to settle peace with Abysia (I wouldn't win that game, but such outcome would affect many nations).
It would result in a lot of advantages for both of us.

It is why any type of negotiation or communication is strictly forbidden in no-diplo games.

I'm here, certainy in virtual body even if I'm not entirely sure about in spirit - I've had a hell of a weekend - Friday night both me and my girlfriend were attacked by my next door neighbours uncle - I called the Police and he was arrested then spent the night in the cells. There's been some fallout (LOL yeah fallout) - but they've moved out this weekend so should be all over now!

I'd like to sign up. Newbie here.

As for voting, I vote EA, 7 indie strength, and I'd prefer randomized nation selection.

Im Still here.
No thanks on MA, would go EA,LA,MA in voting order,
still 5 indie strengh

I confirm my attendance in the newbie game, and thank our esteemed organiser chelubey for his dedication and management.

Three questions: When do we start, what map will we use and what is the procedure for deciding who gets what faction? First-come first-serve?

Edited by: Democritusparadise

>When do we start,

Like one-two more days to give others opportunity to come.
Far not everyone visits forum every day.

Meanwhile I'll keep filling missing pieces for OP (issues marked with "<>" and red font) and look for fixed starts maps.
Since my skills in map design are horrible, I'd rather find some well-done map from one of previous games.

>what map will we use

I'll provide the list of maps I've found (there will be likely a choice, since 6-7 players games were often), so players will be able to choose.

>and what is the procedure for deciding who gets what faction? First-come first-serve?

It doesn't look like a good idea. First-come first-serve doesn't wouldn't work with anonymous games well.
Nation requests can't be made via forum (anonymity!), so only via PM/mail.
In order for each particular player to know if nation he likes is chosen or not admin have to sit and constantly monitor mailbox and instantly write on forum that some nation is chosen already (otherwise you may send your request, and receive an answer after a while that you are unlucky - someone else was earlier for this nation).
Also whether several persons wanted to play the same nation, the one with highest forum activity will get it (since it will notice request to send nations first). (The latter maybe not that significant for such a not that large game, but still).

Common approach is to request people to send a prioritized list of the nations they want to play.
If there is a collision (several requests for a single nation), than admin makes a random roll to define which of applicants gets this nation. Those who fail the race are given the nations they requested next in their lists. (Among those who shifted to second nation there can be collision as well, which is resolved in the same way).
It won't matter who send their requests first and who is next for this approach.

However there is alternative idea of Calahan. If collision comes, all competitors are shifted to the next nations in their lists.
I'll refresh pros and cons of this approach in comparison with standard one, and remember why I followed this idea in Shakespearesbirthday game.

Edited by: chelubey

Cool, thanks. I'll send my list to you soon.

Still interested, but as indicated I'm away with no internet from Dec 6th to 18th. If you want to start before that and have enough players, go for it and have fun.
In other news: The proper name for this game would be Wannabe Wizardry: Bane of the Cosmic Noob. (Back story: Noobs cannot write ingame messages, or thread messages, because they lack a bane and do not know how to write. There's only one bane around, the Bane of the Cosmic Noob [+100 writing skills, -10 experience], so they duke it out who will get it, because being able to write diplomacy messages is extremely powerful).

Just to say I am dropping out people, have lotsa fun!

Brihaspati wrote: In other news: The proper name for this game would be

There is no any hidden sense in that name. I'm not very good in naming. That was the very first what came to my mind.
(What you may guess from that one of games I created was named "Hedgehog" and another one "Shaekspearesbirthday").

Democritusparadise wrote: Cool, thanks. I'll send my list to you soon.

This is somewhat early. There is no even era defined.

Edited by: chelubey

Im in but im real new so i really need to know the era cause i have never ever played MA and know about 2 nations in the other categories.

Edited by: ran88dom99

ran88dom99 wrote: Im in but im real new so i really need to know the era cause i have never ever played MA and know about 2 nations in the other categories.

I'm not mistaken, the votes are the following so far:
EA: Lukasr, Brihaspati, Tsuji_M
MA: Radiator, Boredoffester, Democritusparadise
A draw here.
Ran88dom99 voted for LA which is not so popular, however I'd interpret last message as a vote against MA, so let it be EA.

Era: EA. I'll update OP era clause

Brihaspati wrote: Still interested, but as indicated I'm away with no internet from Dec 6th to 18th. If you want to start before that and have enough players, go for it and have fun.

It is likely ok if you'll be able to perform offline preparations during this time (like pretender design, nation testing, etc) before 18th.
Let me consider situation.

Usually the proper order is about the following:
1) Players are finally defined
2) Map is chosen
3) Nation selection takes place.
4) Nations are distributed, and people start devising their pretenders.
(This order is not accident.
Without player amounts (completion of (1) fixed starts map can't be chosen.
And knowledge of map and its properties can affect people's preferences for nations. )

I'll try to speedup matters.

If Fraggomon doesn't participate, then there are 7 participants.
Democritusparadise
ran88dom99
lukasr
Brihaspati
boredoffester
Radiator
Tsuji_M
I'll look for 7-players fixed starts maps and 8-players (in case someone comes meanwhile) fixed starts maps this evening in order to propose them for your choice. (Maybe there will be 1-2-3 choices in each category - more for 7-fixed starts and less for 8-fixed starts. These are common numbers, so there are going to be options)
You'll be able to provide votes for maps tomorrow (during 4th) and I'll select the map (and close recruitment) tomorrow evening in the end of the day.
I don't think this map or another one is going to be that important for someone (I'll choose only among decent and tested in other game maps, so you won't get something freaky), so shortened maps voting isn't going to be a problem. (Usually maps are chosen by admin anyway).

And it is not likely that this or that map is going to affect your nation choices heavily (since many competition maps have similar structure. Usually relatively lower amounts of water, like 10%, usually up to 15 provinces/player, certainly wraparound).

Calahan's idea for reesolution of nation collisions will be used
(detailed description in Z7.invisionfree.com )

Please send me via personal message the list of five EA nations preferred for you in the order from the best priority to lesser priority ones. (No underwater nations: Oceania, Atlantis, R'lyeh)

The game is ANONYMOUS, so DON'T accidently post your list on forum.

As it is explained in message Z7.invisionfree.com if there is only one request for some nation among 1st priorities - this nation is assigned to player who requested it automatically.
However if several players requested the same nation as their 1st priority, then this nation is not assigned, and 2d priority nations for all contested participants will be considered. (That nation maybe mentioned by someone else as his/her 2d priority).
Follow the link Z7.invisionfree.com - there is extensive explanation there.

If you don't care about some hypothetical map's influence, you can send your list now.
(And you can send revised list(s) later if you changed your mind).
If everyone managed to provide their lists to 5th, I'll post the results of nation selection 5th December.
(So you'll have like 1,5 weeks till 18th+ to design your pretenders, test expansion phase, and maybe even perform duel using your nation with someone not involved in this game. However, please be careful about that, this is anonymous game).

Since I announced era (EA) and nation selection procedure right now, it would be certainly unfair to set up some limits, or deadlines for just one/two days here.
So I'd say if someone still considers his list later than 5th/6th - it is ok, and your right.
It is something what can definitely take some time.

As for Brihaspati case - if there will be no everyone's list of requested nations to 5/6th... hmmm...
Brihaspati, will you have some opportunity to check forum to receive your assigned nation later than 6th?

Edited by: chelubey

Why don't admins set time to 50 hours or more and just keep track of anyone holding up the game. That way the extremely dangerous rollback never needs to be called. also saves the admin from physically ordering a delaying of the turn.

Edited by: ran88dom99

>That way the extremely dangerous rollback never needs to be called.

Excluding duels I admined something like 5-8 games.
I didn't perform a single rollback attempt there.

I can't say how many successfull and not successful rollbacks I witnessed in other games on Dom3mods, Desura and Shrapnel for last 1,5 years (I didn't track all games, but many). There were some successful, and some were not.
However for WallWorld game I played it didn't go well. It resulted in broken game, so it was restarted as WallWorld2.

And it even caused Calahan to write extensive instruction for us (how to evade typical mistakes during rollbacks): Z7.invisionfree.com (there is a discussion about performing rollbacks there as well)
I think it worth mentioning in order other people know where to address to evade similar mistakes.

However his conclusion was that rollbacks are better to be evaded unless other means remain:

And finally a word about rollbacks. DO NOT EVER USE THEM UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Rollbacks should NEVER be the solution to a player staling. As that is the worst possible use of a rollback ever. Rollbacks should only be used as a last rseort to solve a problem, and only after all other options have been explored. If a rollback has to occur then the admin should know exactly what happens during the process, and exactly what the procedure is to prevent a rollback from creating game-ending bugs.

All of these guidelines were broken in that game.

If you do not understand how a rollback works, then DO NOT EVER USE THE ROLLBACK OPTION without first asking for advice on the matter from senior players. (who are all likely to tell you the same thing. Never rollback a turn unless you have no other option to solve the problem)

Edited by: chelubey

I will not have internet access after Dec 6th. But I won't have much time for playtesting after that, anyway. Since I do not intend to do more than basic expansion testing and basic thinking about pretender design, I'm totally fine with getting a surprise when I come back.

Signed so far (counting both this thread and initial thread):
Democritusparadise
ran88dom99
Brihaspati
boredoffester
Radiator
lukasr
Tsuji_M
did I forget someone?

Available maps:
7 players wraparound fixed starts maps are listed here (only first message along the link): Indiedb.com
I won't copy-paste text from there for brievity.
There are four maps there:
7.1) Broken Kingdom (91+12)
7.2) Land of Ethereal Squirrels (103+13)
7.3) Vale of Variance (102+5)
7.4) Streamlands (93+10)
For each map link is provided on original thread. You can follow the link to watch the map (read about it, download, test, whatever - although easily found download links can be without fixed starts).
There are also some consideration of these maps in Indiedb.com

8 players
I found the following 8 player fixed start maps:
8.1) Land of Ethereal Squirrels (103+13) , 8 player all land start version
It was used in Shaekspearesbirthday
8.2) Parganos (116+19)
It was used in Indiedb.com
Map can be found in Forum.shrapnelgames.com
8.3) Streamlands (93+10) - 8 fixed start version
Twiceborn game: Indiedb.com

(For 9 players there are
Cloaca Maxima - from StickySituation game - Z7.invisionfree.com
and
Plane of Rusty Nails - from Battle at the end of time game - Indiedb.com )

If you are interested in map choice - please provide your vote pro and cons the maps above. (Separately for 7th and 8th starts maps)

Edited by: chelubey

I vote for Vale of Variance. I had almost managed to play that once (that game failed to start and we started playing TakeTwo instead), and I found that map really cool for the funny names, the nice graphics and the generally nice layout.

For 8 players... Parganos or Squirrels, not sure.

I vote:
7.1) Streamlands
7. 2) Land of Ethereal Squirrels
7. 3) Vale of Variance - Too much land, not enough sea provinces
7. 4) Broken Kingdom - I personally don't like such maps, because of how powerful underwater nations and sailing can become due to the nature of the map.

or

8. 1) Parganos
8. 2) Streamlands
8. 3)Land of Ethereal Squirrels

- Reserved -

1) Plane of Rusty Nails
2) Parganos
3) Land of Etheral Squirrils
4) Streamlands
5) The rest
6) Except I don't want Cloaca Maxima

No opinion on the map tbh.

Yeah i don't know the maps.

- Reserved -