A bit odd, isn't it
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Youngcons.com - Parents say Public School Forced Child to Convert to Islam
So many people call out for "total separation of church and state" but it seems that's only when Christianity is involved. The writer makes a good point at the end:
"Could you imagine the outcry from liberal activists if the students had been forced to write ‘Jesus is Lord’?
What if the teachers handed out Rosary Beads and assigned all the students to confession to receive their First Holy Communion? Or, gave the children Hebrew lessons and had them wear a Yamaka?
What do you think the response would be?"
There is a good reason why we separated religion from schools. If schools were teaching christianity in christian countries, there would be hardly a way to educate children of people with other beliefs.
Also, teach a religion in school and you get this Youtube.com. What a huge step forward...
I know you're not going to be happy with me saying this, but I side with the school on this one.
I in school right now am learning the exact things they are complaining about right now. What Islam is, looking deep into it, and seeing how it effected the world then and now. And I don't go to a public school, i go to a private school where they have a class set aside specifically about teaching God's word AND has a one hour mandatory chapel service every Thursday. Even then though, we still make sure we have the correct facts at a college preparation level starting in eighth grade. Now, since this IS a Christian based private school, I doubt they need to worry about indoctrinating us with Islam (after all, you can't go a day without God coming up), but from what they have described I see little wrong with it. Its good to learn about other religions and what they're about. Even though Islam isn't a peaceful religion it still effects the world in a powerful way from around 600AD when it seemingly formed all the way up till now. Shouldn't people be taught some about it at the very least? (And did the girl ACTUALLY convert?)
I don't see a problem with learning about other faiths.
HOWEVER, how it's taught can make or break the lesson.
When they say the pledge of allegiance or allow prayer in school I wouldn't mind it. I actually encourage it. The only issue is when the school starts forcing students coming there to believe other faiths. It's a choice, a personal one. While you can learn about it, no one should force you to accept it.
I miss the days when America was more focused on Christianity, back then even though we were still human as now we at least had somewhat of a moral compass. Although that's something that has to be more enforced at the home level rather than the educational level. Once that's done the rest just follows suit.
I don't mean to be rude at all and after rereading this I seem to come off this way yet I don't else know how to word this, but that's a little contradicting to say Joshua. Saying that faith is a personal choice and it shouldn't be forced yet it seems like what your coming across as is "this applies to any faith EXCEPT for Christianity". I am not sure if that's what you are getting at but can you clear that up a bit?
I'm saying if you want Christianity to be more prevalent in the society that's something more for the home life to do rather than the school system, better that way.
Families are better at discussing that then the educational system.
I mean all faiths, when I say no forced conversions at school time.
Ohhhhhhhh. That was worded oddly so I didn't understand. I'm really sorry (did I come off as rude?)
That goes for most religions really, but yeah.
For once, I actually agree with you for the mostime part. It's better to discuss faiths (at least on a personal level) at home rather than school. I do think you should learn about faiths at school, but more along the lines of learning what the faith is like and it's structure and how it effects a society rather than converting people, though I honestly doubt people were actually converted during this.
Nop, you're fine.
When it comes to personal decisions regarding those faiths home is the best place to discuss it. As to what's going on in these schools I couldn't say for certain...
Okay good.
Agreed.
Me either. My school is learning about Islam and going very deep into it but like I said, its a Christian private school. We can get away with it because Christianity is a big part of our learning, however people are more open to influence to this in public school.
Agree.
What's going on those schools? My personal theory how that article appeared is that daughter of Mr.Veteran complained about amount of knowledge she has to show at school. People do that, don't you? Daddy took closer look and went like 'my daughter will not learn about this crap'. He went to school, made a scene and was banned out.
It is good to know something about all religions. Pillars of Islam ans Shahada are base of Islam and therefore people should have some idea about what they are. As Joshua said, it depends how it's taught. Having kids remember facts - yes. Forcing them to practice a religion - no. That must remain voluntary.
Honestly, I can't imagine how Iodine's class looks like. It appears to me that what is taught one day contradicts with other day. Also, don't these Chapel activities take too much time from your schedule?
Firstly, the U.S. was never focused on Christianity. It was founded by Deists and has never declared a state religion. Also, you're literally being hypocritical in saying that other religions shouldn't be taught as fact in school and yet you say Christianity should be taught in schools. Christianity has never been proven as fact.
Whatever possessed you too go back to a months old post that literally no one is watching be beyond me. But I will humor you nonetheless.
Christianity is part of the culture of the United States, it never had to be declared the state religion. Anyone who knows our history knows this has been the dominant faith of the U.S. for the past 200 both here and even in Europe for a much longer span of years. And saw us through both and bad times, as well has been used as a excuse for both good and bad actions.
I needn't say more than this.
I'd prefer the United States culture be preserved, not torn asunder and washed out by other cultures looking to turn the United States into their own patch of say the mideast, china, or russia.
When you come to the U.S. you respect our culture, and our beliefs. That's part of assimilation. If you attempt to argue with me that we're mean't to be a mix of other peoples. My counter is this.
Most of the immigrants who came to the U.S. were from first world western countries in Europe up from our founding all the way to the Atomic Age. It isn't till now as we start accepting on mass different cultures that we see a war of ideology brewing in the U.S. till we have what we do now.
I merely wish our cultural identity be preserved, that includes the customs, faith, and values of the United States that we knew for so long.
If you cannot understand that, there's really nothing more for me too say. As what Ive said is either you accept, or do not. I do not presume to believe I can forcibly change one's entire belief system in a simple moddb post discussion. You either get it or you don't. Have a wonderful day.
In my class (or at least that specific class), we teach from a secular point of view and that's it. This is the only class we do this and there are very few times we don't. What we do on that class is we looks at civilizations of the past and then their religions. We think critically about them and study them to find if there is some forms of deeper meaning. We have done this with Jeudaism, Catholicism, Islam and even our own religion of Christianity. We study them and we find its strong points and it's weak points.
How is it contradicting itself?
And as for Chapel, Chapel is on Thursdays which only has three 90 minutell classes rather than seven, 50 minute ones. On Wednesdays we have four 90 minute classes. They make it work.
Reading back on this I noticed my opinion on this has gotten kind of fuzzy. Sorry for that, I'm not good with words. I'm just going to point-blank state how I feel on this matter RIGHT NOW:
"I congratulate the school for trying to teach their students on Islam, however they seem to have taught the wrong things and executed it poorly, and that I am not happy with.
I congratulate the Dad and former veteran for standing up about this, but like I am about the school, I am not happy that he poorly executed that.
Basically it was a mistake that went out of hand and got blown up more than it should.
I also wish if someone would actually tell me if the child considered converting or not."
That's my opinion on this. I am very open to new information and opinions on this. Is this better?
I understand now, thank you. About the child converting, I highly doubt it. I can't imagine a girl converting to Islam without force - Islam is women-unfriendly. At least from our point of view.
I think JBrisco said most of what I would have said. Me and him are almost startlingly alike it seems... heh.
@Iodine
There's nothing saying the girl actually converted. What IS said is that the school was requiring her to make a profession of Muslim faith, writing and saying stuff like "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." It does not say if she actually believed what she was being forced to recite, but i doubt she did.
On a side note, I'm actually a fair bit surprised that your school is even teaching its classes about anything regarding Islam. I remember you mentioning before that they and your Bible class, ironically, try their hardest to stay away from any controversial topics.
@CommanderDef
Your view is a bit confusing to me. At first it seemed like you said that it's the school's fault for trying to teach anything about religion at all, but now it seems like you're saying it's the dad's fault for (paraphrased) "making a scene about it."
@Both CD and Iodine
If you had a daughter or son in school and their school was forcing them to write "there is no God but Allah" and make a profession of Muslim faith, basically making them spend their class(es) acting like a Muslim, wouldn't you want to get your kid out of that? Just asking.
In regards to teaching -about- religions at school, I agree that it should be more of a home-thing, but I will say this; statisticaly, when US schools basically outlawed reading of the Bible within their walls, crime rates did increase.
That does not mean, however, that the schools were teaching Christianity. But that definitely banned the individual teachers from reading to their class during downtime, recess, or the students reading it together or by themselves uring downtime, recess, etc.
I don't have a problem with the fact that the school is going to teach its students about Islam (whether or not what they're teaching about it is correct), but I DO have a problem with the fact that they're basically forcing their students to spend their class or classes acting like Muslims.
If you want to teach about a religion, put on a documentary, educational video, buy some curriculums. Don't force the class against their will to act they're a member of that religion.
That seems to the be one of the main points the author of the article was making, this (what the school is doing) is not how to go about teaching about a religion. The second major point being that liberals in general who are calling out for total seperation of church and state (and almost certainly bending that to mean what they want), saying religion should have nothing to do with education, are being rediculiously hypocritical by being completely silent when it comes to schools teaching about Islam (at least when they're saying it's a "religion of peace" and all of that.) They're in an uproar when Christianity is involved, but when it comes to Islam...
*Cricket noise*
Like the writer said, "Could you imagine the outcry from liberal activists if the students had been forced to write ‘Jesus is Lord’?
What if the teachers handed out Rosary Beads and assigned all the students to confession to receive their First Holy Communion? Or, gave the children Hebrew lessons and had them wear a Yamaka?
What do you think the response would be?"
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Good day and God bless you all...
;)
Hehheh. Yeah.
*"There is no God but God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God."
That's the profession of faith. Allah is the Arabic word for God, like Gott is the German word for God, Dios is the Spanish word for God and so on and so forth.
I do agree with you that making them recite and memorize the profession of faith was going too far and that should of at LEAST of have been optional to the student as there religion may not have alouded it. Like here.
Yes, my BIBLE class does, but this isn't my Bible class.
What I would do on that chance is I would go to the school and ask them what directly what is going on in that class and what they have been, has, and will be learning. If I don't agree with what they're teaching I will sit down with my child and let them know what my theoretical child will learn and ask them what they have learned. I will then give them a talk on Christianities view of right and wrong. Unless I feel my child's morality is at stake, they will never be taken out of that class.
I meant teaching religions on a personal level is at home. You need to learn about different religions at school. They are a huge part of the past and present.
I am just curious, don't get mad at me, but how are you viewing this? How are you viewing them that makes you say "making them act like Muslims"? I don't get it.
(Will respond to the rest of that momentarily, limited on time. )
I'm against teaching religion, but I support teaching ABOUT religion. The word makes all the difference. Naturally, teacher wants you to prove your new knowledge, so he will ask about basic things - pillars and shahada. Writing it down or reciting it to teacher for this purpose is not practicing a religion. Nobody said you have to believe it, or live by it.
Is it less confusing now?
Yep, got it, ty.
Yep
Good grief was my comment long....
I do agree with you that it is absolutely stupid that Islam gets treated as this high and mighty religion and Christianity is seemed as almost lowly and horrid. And they shouldn't be teaching things that are still in debate, such as Islam being a peaceful religion.
I have a theory on why Christianity has so much hate directed towards it at the moment though; The people calling themselves Christians aren't really Christians at all but people are believing them.
Christianity is now seen as almost a hate group. Same with conservatives. They're seen as a hate group. There are a few reasons for this.
1. "The Westboro Baptist Church." Godhatesfags.com ...
2. "Most Christians are conservative." It is no doubt that conservatives are disliked now-a-days for various reasons. I think the fact they are often seen with each other has caused this.
(cont.)
3. "Most conservatives are intolerant." While this is true in some cases, there is a line to draw and no one will put up with anyone's bullcrap on either side. Conservatives got the short end of the stick there. Thats not without saying we have are flaws when it comes to this though because when they don't tolerate something it gets known or they are being closed-minded about something people just shouldn't be though at this point it getting to more into the opinion range.
4. Religious Extremism. No matter what religion, extremism isn't a good thing and Christianity is no exception. I had someone once say to me "If the devil cannot get you to sin, he will throw you overboard with religion." which is a quote i look highly on. There is such a thing as too much and that goes for everything. In the case of Christianity, people do mean well but when it goes too far, it becomes abrasive, nosy, bossy and near unacceptable. Sure, we mean well but that is hardly ever what comes across. Trust me here.
5. Silent Majority Vs Loud Minority. The good ones stay quiet for some reason.
(more may be added later)
So yeah, this is my take on that. What do you think?
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They would only have a problem with Catholicism really.
Good day to you too.
WINK.
What do I think?
Well, one-third of me agrees with you, the next third doesn't, and the third third is wondering how you turned this into a brief rant about why Christians and Conservatives are so hated.
Don't take that as an attack or insult, it isn't, just my initial thoughts.
EDIT: Also, sorry for downvoting your comment, I meant to UPvote it. Darn it.
I DON'T GET WHY THEY'RE SO HATED THOUGH BELIEVE IT OF NOT. NO ONE LISTENS TO THEM ANYMORE AND IT TICKS ME OFF BECAUSE YOU CANNOT JUST HEAR ONE OPINION ALL THE TIME BECAUSE THEN PEOPLE THINK IT'S FACT WHEN IT'S NOT AND PEOPLE CALLING OPINIONS FACTS MAKES ME ANGRY.
People need to hear both sides of the story or both sides to an opinion... even if they don't agree...
I didnt take that as an attack, but that first line, I couldn't help but read it sassily.
Eh, it's fine. I deserved it.
To me Conservatism is mostly just common sense. Which is dire short supply these days.
Limited government, state's rights, and actually remembering that the Constitution is there to do more than say "We the People."
lol, sorry
No you didn't
That doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't at least hear the other side's perspective on the issue. Something might make sense to you, but not make sense to another because that is how YOU see the world, not them. Its not harmful to listen. Its not harmful to persuade. What is harmful is being the person that doesn't try to see another point of view because they think theirs is the one and only correct way to view something and causing stress to everyone else in the process. (You don't do this though, don't worry.)
?
And that came off as insincere.
i do. i'm being a jerk.
MAN DID I HAVE TO BREAK UP THAT COMMENT
Oh look here, a big discussion.
Yep!
Never leave a good topic unfinished...
@Iodine
Yes, I'm aware of that, but according to the article that is not what she was having to write.
"Allah" does have the connotation of referring to the Muslim version of God, so in context it could work for that.
... I'm sorry, but if after reading in the article what the school was forcing the students to do as part of their "study" and don't why I said "making them act like Muslims," I don't know how to help you.
Never heard of Westboro "Baptist" (emphasis on these: " ") Church until now.
As for most Christians being Conservative, that might be because Conservatism tends to line up best with the Bible.
Satan also is effectively is, for now, allowed to have his influence on Earth and all of us, so he almost certainly will try to get everyone to reject Christianity (and more importantly, Jesus Christ) and will use every measure to do that, and including destroying any Christian ideals.
As for religious extremism, yes, though many people will count a real strong, devout Christian as an "extremist".
But you've left pretty good ones unfinished before that before. (Or at least said you'd comment back on it later but never did...)
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Ohhhh okay.
I have found conflicting articles on that so I am taking your word for it.
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Well alright then.
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(after reading back on that, please don't take what I said about those as my opinion... I was parroting what other people have said to me before...)
LUCKY YOU.
Isn't Conservatism based around the Bible?
That'll hopefully change soon.
To me there is a difference between being A Devout Christian, and a Christian Extremist. For example, in a debate an Extremist will give a Bible verse out of context to make their argument. A Devout Christian will give a verse and explain the context around it. Its that kind of thing. You get what I mean?