Making a nation, could use input Thread - Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension

So one day I got bored and thought, hey, whatever happened to all those predator lizards? I could make a nation out of that and then I wouldn't be so sad about them dying after being enslaved all the time. So I started drawing new armor on their sprites with the idea of making a LA nation.

However, this is my first content mod and I'm struggling a bit with the themes here. The obvious tack was that since Ctis is roughly Egypt the predator lizards are very roughly Israelites and so they'd escape and be led away by a hero/prophet in that fashion (the sobeks unfortunately die though they could have an influence). They then wander to a new land and kick out the icy natives thanks to some bird lizard shaman/mages who perform a great ritual to get everything warm and cozy for the lizards instead, and then they stay there for an indefinite period of time until the LA war. But I don't know what kind of tech to give them.

For more context here's the interesting leadership: one sacred hopefully light thug with no self-bless (that'd cause other story problems), a F1W1 mage, a S1N1P2 priest, and a sacred F1W1N1+2FWSN (yes that's linked) STR mage (not cap-only). So far I really like this part of the setup. It's not a combination I see in other nations much but seems to fit, and I wanted to avoid earth, air, and death. The sacred unit is going to be a bird lizard (not cap only, but perhaps limited recruitment), the story being that all the sacreds aside from the priest (who is of the larger race) are runner lizards that have been blessed with feathered faces and are no longer cold-blooded.

Now, to precisely state my questions:

1. Would the plate armor I already drew stretch the story? Making a good story that fits Dominions important to me.
2. But if the story feels better as a more tribal society, how should I compensate them without going mictlan/patala sacred/summon crazy?
3. If I go for chainmail in the middle how much of a disadvantage is that vs plate and tower shields?
4. How bad it is for runners (the stand-in cavalry for the larger lizards) that I can't imagine them using shields bigger than bucklers with those little stubby arms, or that they'll get stuck with light lances?

These are my main questions, but any and all comments are welcome 'cause I'm a newb to content mods. Also have a runner in plate:

Cheers!

I actually thought about this the other day, I'd love to see the predator lizards from C'tis expanded on. Especially the runners, they're so cute.

And useless.

The obvious way to go is to mash them up with Machaka.

KateMicucci wrote: The obvious way to go is to mash them up with Machaka.

That's not very obvious at all.

Indeed. What common point between israelites and african ?

The obvious thing, given the premisse, is to mix them with Gath giants. Of course, it ask the question of why in Gath they are human ...

The israelite theme is take up by the Gath-Ashdod-Hinnom line anyway, even if it's a really bizarre Jotunheim copy glazed with a mishmash of israelite and pre-israelite themes.

Another suggestion would be to mix them in with another animalistic race, perhaps atlantians or pangea.

Well, both are extremely far away, since atlantean are in the atlantic ocean and pangea to the north of Greece.

Egyptian history certainly have more than his share of strange historic period. Akhenaten might be a lead for example.

Individual8580 wrote: The israelite theme is take up by the Gath-Ashdod-Hinnom line anyway, even if it's a really bizarre Jotunheim copy glazed with a mishmash of israelite and pre-israelite themes.

The Israelite thing was more an inspiration for slavery->exodus->displacement history than anything to do with the lizard mythology/religion, which so far I've basically invented (aside from S1N1 from barbarians), in turn because I haven't found a real-life mythology/religion that seems to fit. I was more wondering what kinds of technological things make sense (what kind of armor should they have?) and if I make their tech sub-par for LA how could I compensate them?

Ohlmann wrote: Egyptian history certainly have more than his share of strange historic period. Akhenaten might be a lead for example.

Hmm, I'll take a look at that.

Edited by: phyvo

Ohlmann wrote: Well, both are extremely far away, since atlantean are in the atlantic ocean and pangea to the north of Greece.

Egyptian history certainly have more than his share of strange historic period. Akhenaten might be a lead for example.

Akhenaten was much later than the Exodus. I don't see him being relevant to this.

Edited by: Cruxador

Cruxador wrote:

Ohlmann wrote: Well, both are extremely far away, since atlantean are in the atlantic ocean and pangea to the north of Greece.

Egyptian history certainly have more than his share of strange historic period. Akhenaten might be a lead for example.

Akhenaten was much later than the Exodus. I don't see him being relevant to this.

The exodus didn't actually happen, but times both before and after Akhenaten have been suggested for the events it was based on.

I don't get why people want to mash up the predator lizards with other things when the whole point of making a nation for them is to let them shine on their own for once. I think you could base them mostly on the post exodus pre temple destruction israelites and it would work fine, since hinnom are jewish in origin but very different in almost everything else. I think them wandering to an icy land is dumb as well, it's needless shit added on for no reason, and it's a bit similar to LA Atlantis.

The entirety of what we know of the predator lizards based off of in-game lore is that some were enslaved in ctis, they liked those sobek guys, they had astral/nature shamans, and that there are still barbarians even in LA. Though thinking of Israel helps it's still a pretty blank slate.

I certainly was trying to work off of the nation being lizards: it seemed interesting to me for the bird lizards to have feathered sacreds that were not cold blooded (after all lots of raptors had feathers). This suggests fire paths, but what would motivate bird lizards to have fire magic and/or the awakening God to bless them in this way? If I went through with it I had to invent *some* reason. Enter icy enemies and a flame ritual. There could be a better way to rationalize it but I did have a line of reasoning here. I'm sure you have ideas you like better or you might just hate the idea of feathered bird lizards too.

Someone wrote: What common point between israelites and african ?

There is nothing about the predator lizard's lore that shows any cultural similarity to the Israelites. Even C'tis's similarities to ancient Egypt are vague at best. Randomly assigning real human cultures to ex nihilo fantasy species is a staple of bad fiction (which the Dominions designers have done a good job of avoiding).

Someone wrote: I don't get why people want to mash up the predator lizards with other
things when the whole point of making a nation for them is to let them
shine on their own for once

Because there's absolutely nothing interesting about them. The Sobeks could have provided some flavor but the OP has already decided to throw them out.

Fire is the element of Change and chaos. How about them splintering off with a Fire being's influence. The Fire influence is warping and mutating the lizards. This can be the tech that increases armor(scales), add attacks with third arms or improved tails, some breath weapons, maybe some negative movement or encumbrance problems, etc.

In dominion, Fire don't seem linked to change and chaos. Ermor, Marignon, and Abysia all well show that it may even more be the element of empire/tyranny, whic is not a chaotic mode of government..

Edited by: Ohlmann

phyvo wrote: If I go for chainmail in the middle how much of a disadvantage is that vs plate and tower shields?

Since lizards commonly have some base protection their protection with chainmail is going to be roughly equivalent to a human with plate while retaining much better encumbrance and defense values. Win-win for the lizard, but cold-blood's a huge enough disadvantage to compensate.

phyvo wrote: How bad it is for runners (the stand-in cavalry for the larger lizards) that I can't imagine them using shields bigger than bucklers with those little stubby arms, or that they'll get stuck with light lances?

Runners necessarily fill a slightly different niche than cavalry, who in extended melee are all about high defense and reasonable encumbrance for their protection level. Having a buckler, not getting the mounted tag, and lizards' naturally low defense, are only going to exaggerate the difference. The big weakness of bucklers is that they're a fair bit worse at blocking missiles than regular shields are. You can compensate in melee by increasing base defense, but you'd need excessively high base values to match most cavalry. Light lance isn't a problem, size 2 is actually a big advantage in melee and due to their bite lizards are consistently very solid offensively, especially when fighting against static enemy lines. They'll never be as strong on the charge as knight types due to their higher speed and proper lances.

If you want something that works more like classic heavy cavalry mechanically (expensive, durable, hits hard, large) I would suggest some sort of monstrous creature, dinosaurs, local animals, or something more fantastic, all could work.

Edited by: Bоо

Given that Burden of time bypass some youth items already, I bet that the fountain prevent natural aging but not supernatural one (from decay or BoT, only BoT happen outside of battle)

Fangowolf wrote: Fire is the element of Change and chaos. How about them splintering off with a Fire being's influence. The Fire influence is warping and mutating the lizards. This can be the tech that increases armor(scales), add attacks with third arms or improved tails, some breath weapons, maybe some negative movement or encumbrance problems, etc.

If you wanted to do various draconic mutations, you could hook them up with some renegade Abysian Warlocks.

Thank you Boo, that's extremely helpful. Looking back I had been uncertain of the lizards' ability to perform and I subtly inflated some stats that I probably didn't need to (and which didn't make sense to inflate given the differences between similar recruitable slaves and their normal counterparts in other races). Having some kind of big guy will probably help round them out a lot too, I'll have to figure out what I like.

I currently have pretty standard units and a flavor unit for each lizard race. I really like the feathers on the bird lizards so I'm keeping that one but my flavor unit for the big lizards is basically tougher expensive elite infantry that claim some sobek ancestry (though this claim is probably not true). That's an ok idea but unfortunately a few stat increases on strength HP and natural prot to be more like a sobek aren't terribly exciting. I could give them the tail weapon that I gave to the feathered bird sacreds (inaccurate attack and #melee50 to prevent crazy 9 attacks per square, no recruitable goes above 6 as it is) but that does dilute the specialness. Perhaps something draconic indeed, though I've never played a blood nation.

Anyways, thanks to all for your input.

I'd definitely recommend somehow tying this nation of yours with Abysia. This would give you the necessary push lore-wise to create mutations that could improve the predator lizard's arsenal.

Another suggestion would be to link the predators to other lizard-like creatures. Drakes, Wyverns, Draconians etc.

Actually, Darius, makes a good point on the end there. Wyverns, drakes and dragons, they're all in the game but they're disparate and not really expanded on. Giving the lizards more varied, possibly more impressive, dragons could make for some very interesting summons/pretenders. The same for Wyverns and Drakes for high-tier units and sacreds.

Also, I know I'm not a known member of the community or anything but I've done my own modding for Dominions for some time, including sprite and code work so if you want a little help, it's here.

Edited by: Austupaio

Ok let's get the history straight.

Note: I'm going at this in a strictly narrative way, actual history is thrown out of the picture in favor of fantasy. If i seem to not be well versed in actual lore at times, bear with me and try to change things that don't fit.

"As the predator lizards was seen as meerely a pest after the age of miasma, the scourge began.
The predator lizards were in panic and disarray and all seemed lost.

But, the last of the sobeks felt their heart belonged with their carnivorous brethren and as such formed a final last stand and managed to rally up the fleeing predator lizards and hold of the c'tissians long enough for the predators to escape.

Led by a single sobek, the predators fled the deserts and searched for their new home.
The sobek that had been of a higher standing within the empire knew the lay of the world and as such could lead them not astray. But they were ever hounded by the vile C'tissans and had to flee nearer and nearer colder deader lands.

One night, as the freezing force lay at rest the sobek received a vision.
The image was fiery and molten, but the sobek was given a vision, a path to walk to lead the predators.
The path led over an icy mountain, where the C'tiss refused to follow. Some predators faltered, many died upon those slopes but those with faith and strength pushed on and 'lo, as they walked over the top of the mountain a valley was seen below, verdant green and oozing with heat seeming to seep from the earth.

In this haven the predators thrived, and learned whom had made their haven possible.
It was Rhuax, a king of elemental fires whom had abandoned the abysians in favor of solitude, and had erected a volcano in the middle of a mountain.
And indeed, perched atop a hilltop, an ever sizzling lake of lava was boiling.

The new predator society was fervous, strong and begun their new lives with freedom never felt before.
But always remembering whom made this possible, the sobeks were idolized and nearly worshipped, and the ideals of the sobeks were seen as boons in future generations.
Eventually a temple was built over the pool of ever smouldering lava and a fire cult emerged."

Once more Rhuax decided to move on, but as a final gift made the pool everlasting so the valley would be there for eternity.
The valley was under constant danger from outsiders though, so the mountaintops needed some kind of guardians to protect their culture, but ones that were immune to the cold.
The blood sages set out to breed this new type of guardians, and managed to remove their greatest weakness, the cold blood in their veins.
Actually cross-bred with birds, but this is a great secret.
The mountaintop guards were the only thing betwen the haven, and the outside cruelty, and naturally recieved the best gear possible and sacred status.

As the civilisation grew, eventually their borders needed to grow too. So the fire mages created great idols that would heat the land of wherever it was erected.
Now with a way to leave their land, they set out to destroy the vile C'tiss, and enslave the world if they have to for this dream to come true.

Ideas: "As the lone sobek was idolized, he received near divine status. And it was a great day of sorrow when he finally passed into the afterlife. A great hall was built as his tomb."
The team should have a mummified sobek hero as a pretender chassi.

"In life the lone sobek, the only survivor of his race was given a massive harem to try to quench his sadness for his race, and several priests took upon them to try to either save his bloodline or return his kindred.
Blood sages and death sages were formed from the intellectual elite, while not magically powerful, had great knowledge."
The sages should be two kinds, one group who studied death, and the other who studied blood. They are only level 1 in their respective path but should have some research bonus.
The blood sages managed to enable the sobek to breed with other lizard kin and thus created the halfbreeds. Half sobek half predator.
The halfbreeds are sacred and try to be sobeks as good as they can.
The death sages are more into ancestral worship and managed to find the path to the spirit plane where the sobeks reenact the final battle of their kind. They can summon a single sobek ghost warrior. Higher research can improve this, more ancestors at a time, and commanders at higher levels.
Blood sages have crossbreeding bonus.

Sacred valley magical site with fire gems and bonuses. Perhaps have it raise heat for example and growth. The dominion of this team should add cold but have idols that adds heat for fire mages to construct. "Idol of Rhuax" that can be summoned.

Mountaintop guards naturally have mountain survival.

The technology of this new uprising nation is rather low, so metalworking should be somewhat basic, but their supply of ever smouldering lava and access to fire mages gives them ample opportunity to smelt it.
Scale mail is common since smaller pieces of metal is easier than large.
Their weapons should be similar, wooden hafts (remember, the sacred valley has verdant greenery) with metal and/or stone striking heads.
Perhaps sacred weapons drenched in ever burning lava for a few units? The sobek halfbreed is a nifty choice.
The valley could house large reptiles, dinos that can be summoned is an idea, or just a sturdy lizard for cavalry.

The fire cult could be heretical.
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That is my go on the predators, and if i may say so myself i like my idea.
It adds working backstory, with the exodus you wanted Phyvo and the icy realm. Perhaps a bit cheesy but what the heck.
It adds options to an otherwise limited faction. Sobek halfbreeds, and the sacred warmbloods. And explains them.
It adds the mechanic of having to pave the way for your forces with magic, to heat up the land to make it habitable.
The ancestors is a thing i thought would be cool. Yes, they need death but then again it might not. I just thought ghost sobeks seemed cool.
Fire is always cool.
It gives an explenation why the smouldercone of abysia is fading
Lizards with burning magical weapons anyone?

I guess lore-wise it is not perfect, and this nation would probably be in like the Urals or something IRL.
Let's just say the C'tissans DID NOT LIKE this uprising and are hellbent on their destruction. And chased them a LONG way.

I'm not sure if this works lorewise, since the lizards are not my strong suite and i've only played dominions since dom 3.
If not you could probably make it work, if the sobeks are still popular in C'tiss you could have that half the sobeks rebelled?
Or if they died earlier.... um yeah.

Food for thought is what this is. And hope you do well!