Still confused about End Content Thread

A long one, get ready for a wall of text.

End Content, sometimes know as End Game Content or Post Game Content, is a concept popular in MMOs. I never really understood it, despite it being explained to me multiple times. However, having recently played through Destiny on PS3 (still doing end content for those interested), I kind of understand it. ...What I still don't understand though is why it's at the end of the game, and not the middle.

For anyone unfamiar, I'm going to try and explain what end content is. Those who know it well can skip to the break. End Content happens once you finish the main quest and hit the level cap. At this point the game unlocks raids. These are essentially hard mode versions of story dungeons, or new dungeons with unique mechanics. You're reward for beating these isn't exp or story, but high end loot which you'll need for the heroic tier raids, which give even better loot, but are rediculously difficult. The appeal here is that these raids are very satisfying, and generally require you push your knowledge and skill at the game to the limit, with high tier raids requiring the entire team to act as 1 well oiled machine.

When it comes to end content, there tends to not be alot of it. In my limited experience, raids tend to be either exisiting dungeons made more difficult, or new dungeons with unique mechanics made mostly with existing assets. The big difference though is that all of it is meaningful, requiring planning and preperation, it doesn't feel like filler. There's also a feeling that the game is opening up to you. During the main quest, I had 4 or 5 things in my quest log at a time. Usually the story quest, a side quest or 2, and a few milestones that I'd complete naturally while doing other stuff. Now I have almost a dozen things I could doing. Be it the raid itself, or running arenas and low tier raids in order to get slightly better gear that might make the difference when it comes time for one of those major raids.

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What I still don't get though is, why is this at the end? Hell, it's arguably AFTER the end of the game. Shouldn't this be in the middle? I get that these require a deep knowledge of the game so you can't have it from the start, but why not remove the 40 or so hour barrier of playing through an entire RPG just to get to the best part of the game? I sometime see people say things like "oh, 40 hours in when you reach end content, then the game gets good.". That seems backwards. Having the raids earlier means more people enjoying the best parts of the game, as well as giving a reason for all that high level gear beyond "more raids". Destiny does this a little bit with "strikes", but in practice they seem less like early game raids, and more like co-op story quests. They also don't seem to open up the way the raids did.

The only 2 arguments I can think of against this is that are-
1- players need to be high level and have raid quality gear. But to me that seems like a ballancing thing, not some kind of mandetory barrier that can't be removed. And-

2- Some people want to brease through the story solo. Now, to be fair, I was frustrated in Destiny when in the single player/co-op story campaign you don't kill the villain. You scare him off, and the battle to actually kill him takes place in a high tier 6 player raid I can't play. There's no matchmaking for that raid and having no friends who play the game. But you could still have that, but have the raids open up a couple of hours in instead of after the credits? Would make better side quests than "fetch me 20 wolf skins" or some crap.

But I don't know MMOs enough to say. What do you think?

Well, basically, the endgame content replaces the "Game Over" stage of the game, and acts as the post-game gameplay loop. Longevity is a key to a successful MMO, and MMO without any modding support is forced to be focused on constant expansion of the endgame content, and that is the only reason why this "barrier" is in place. It is not a matter of equipment/difficulty or storyline. (Some MMOs have much heavier and richer story content in the endgame stage, let's not forget about that, so that latter point would not even apply to them in any way.)

Not sure about Destiny (have not played it), but matchmaking seems important for any raids, but not as important as you think, as matchmaking is usually replaced by clan raids, and you create & find a party within your clan, with people you play regularly and come to recognise and know over time, instead of bothering to go with completely random players (who may unwittingly contribute to failing a raid, depending on who exactly you take into the party, they may also turn out to be more helpful than your clanmates, but it is all a great roulette), and it is usually easier as you can find a party by chatting in the clan/alliance window and communicate and coordinate with them via Teamspeak/Mumble and other suitable software. Yes, voice coordination is unimaginably valuable, and it is better to play out raids that way rather than to be condemned to the silence merely broken by a few words typed quite occasionally.

Well, back to the topic at hand, no endgame content = dead MMO. All the content placed in the middle will not hold, and most players will leave sooner or later. That beginning barrier is probably only up to see if you can endure 100, 200, 400, 800, and more hours while playing the endgame stage, so water is served first (to test your liking) and the best wine is left for the long, prolonged end when you are supposed to enjoy the game in your free time (rather than grind pointlessly just like earlier in the game). MMOs may not seem like it, but they are designed for both hardcore and casual players and the endgame has a mild scent of relaxing retirement around it. That is why the endgame content seems to be the way it is.

The matchmaking in Destiny is dumb. The game is made for 1-3 player co-op. But if you can beat Halo on normal, you can solo the game no problem. The low tier raids (strikes) do have a more going on, but those have matchmaking. Then you reach endgame, and suddenly it's asking for 6 players with no matchmaking. It makes some sense, as these raids require a great deal of skill and co-ordination, but there's no kind of guild system either. The best I can do is search third party websites for PSN names and add them. I struggle to get a full team 4 man team together for a game of Left 4 Dead on PC, so there's no way I can get a 6 man game going on a game few people own on a last gen system.

I didn't know about the raids with story content. I'm not big on MMOs (I rarely play them, and almost never get to endgame), so I didn't know they had story in the raids. They any good?

I still don't get the barrier thing though. If raiding is an infinate loop of gameplay, wouldn't it make more sense to focus all your development time and resources on that loop? Not only that, but if the goal is to keep people playing (and thus the world populated) why are raids sectioned off behind 100 hours of crap? It's not like raid players mingle with the casuals. You rarely, if ever see raiders collecting 30 wolf skins in the mid level zones. But the bit I can't get over is this-
"the best wine is left for the long, prolonged end when you are supposed to enjoy the game in your free time"
Shouldn't the entire game be that, instead of the tedious grind?

To put it another way, why not have a MMO that's 1 hour long, but has the greatest endgame ever? Thousands of hours of high quality raiding, with none of the tedium required to get there. It makes sense to me if endgame is the reason people play, and every else is a tedious roadblock.

MMO games are designed to addict players, so that barrier also serves that secretive purpose. If you did not fully enjoy the MMO game in question, you can quit it, but at least you had a bit of fun because developers put some thought and effort in early and mid- game content as well. Sometimes that early grind content is only leftovers after the MMO was expanded further and further pushing the endgame into the midgame. Also found out that many players (myself and friends including) enjoy openfield grinding, which is better than raiding boring and same, undynamic (or worse, only cosmetically modal) instances which are a waste of hardcore players' time in most cases yet still completely perfect for casual gamers who prefer raids.

Actually, quite a few developers emphasise the endgame content the longer MMO is developed and maintained. Not sure what MMO games you have played so far, but the endgame stage gets most (if not all) significant updates. Older MMOs, naturally, evolve plot-wise and receive a better story and plot background to build on later on, still, inconsistencies pop up from time to time because of that, but there is no problem with the amount of storyline content in the endgame stage. (Inconsistencies are an issue, however.)

So? It is the kind of roadblocks and hurdles that make you loyal to the game because of pain and sweat, and it is very hard for you to leave, moreover many players return multiple times to hard MMOs just because they excel at pulling in those returning players over and over again. Quite a few things can improve over years too, and new updates also make players come back at least for a little while.

Also, regarding Destiny, you can try making your own clan/guild/alliance (plus its website, or some group page) to gather more people to play if you intend to play Destiny for a longer period of time, and there are people who are willing to do the same.

Well, suggesting it because you are talking about having difficulty finding 3 people for Left 4 Dead (which would be hard for me as well) while to be frank, around a couple of years back was in server-unique (can be done only by the clans/alliances that entered first, and cannot be done again for 10 days) clan raids that numbered, hmmm, like 100-200 characters (the actual number is smaller because some characters were only boxes i.e. multiboxed characters) at the same trying to kill an overpowered dragon with danger zones all around, especially in later stages of the raid (let's say everyone would die if everyone had gone AFK for more than 2-3 minutes). Aye, 100-200 characters. The number is probably like 120-200 because numbers were needed to lock the instance and block the enemy clans from entering and PvPing inside for it. So the 6-man game session seems laughable when you see 170-180+ characters inside the instance trying to kill one dragon, and it is really something incredible to behold.

MMO games are designed to addict players, so that barrier also serves that secretive purpose. If you did not fully enjoy the MMO game in question, you can quit it, but at least you had a bit of fun because developers put some thought and effort in early and mid- game content as well. Sometimes that early grind content is only leftovers after the MMO was expanded further and further pushing the endgame into the midgame. Also found out that many players (myself and friends including) enjoy openfield grinding, which is better than raiding boring and same, undynamic (or worse, only cosmetically modal) instances which are a waste of hardcore players' time in most cases yet still completely perfect for casual gamers who prefer raids.

That's me in a sense. In Destiny (and to a lesser extent other MMOs) I enjoyed the single player/co-op story more than the end game grind. Obvious issues like people who are more of a hindrance than a help aside, the main game has alot of cool stuff going on, and then you reach the end game and you're expected to have a high skill 6 man team ready to grind out content for cool gear you can't really use because you've finished everything.

So? It is the kind of roadblocks and hurdles that make you loyal to the game because of pain and sweat, and it is very hard for you to leave, moreover many players return multiple times to hard MMOs just because they excel at pulling in those returning players over and over again. Quite a few things can improve over years too, and new updates also make players come back at least for a little while.

That's something else I want to talk about, though it likely deserves a separate topic as it's not exclusive to MMOs. But the way MMOs drip feed content, and strangely that players seem to want or expect to be drip fed content, is strange. I understand why they do that (to keep people logging in every few weeks), but it seems like an odd way of doing things. Going back to Destiny again. I bought it as a bundle with all the expansions up to that point. In a sense, the base game plus 2 years of updates, and it felt like a decent game (the base game was slammed at launch for a lack of content, and there's stuff shown in the trailers that still hasn't appeared in the game).

As for the 200 man raids. That sounds cool, and if they're anything like the public events in Destiny, are quite fun. Though you don't need 200 people in your friends list to make that happen. I'd imagine the game figures out all of that.

SabreXT wrote: As for the 200 man raids. That sounds cool, and if they're anything like the public events in Destiny, are quite fun. Though you don't need 200 people in your friends list to make that happen. I'd imagine the game figures out all of that.

Well, some MMO games cannot figure that out, it is the people themselves who team up and do something together.

Nah, it was nothing like that lol. 200-man raids but very structured and organised. Basically we had a party system based on constant parties (constant groups/teams). Which means there was an alliance, three clans together, and within those clans there were "mini-clans" or constant parties, groups of 7 people who play regularly together. When a big event (like dragon raids) comes about, those constant parties (which have their own captains) are grouped together with a clan leader and his own perma party at the top of the hierarchy. Everything glued together by TeamSpeak-like software. So no need for 200 people in your friendlist either.

So yeah, not really like random fun at all, and even the mood inside the raid was more military-like with captains carefully guiding their parties and the clan leader (and clan officers) shouting orders while coordinating with people from other clans within the alliance. This form of elitism and militarism comes naturally with PvP guilds, you see. PvE guilds are usually about fun and no drama, while PvP is all about drama and often seemingly insurmountable, hard challenges.