Comments - Suzerain

and if the palm trees appear in early test maps... erm, it's global warming.
in the 80's.

honest.

:)

shame I'm RSI'd to hell and unable to model at the moment.

a couple of notes for you, though.
1: chaos. the city streets there are way too square and regular. you really need to look at being able to create organic, twisting streets and the likes.
2: whatever you do, dont try to recreate Kidby's maps of ankh-morpork exactly, you'll just swamp yourself with the effort and the content. Make the *impression* of the bigger city, rather than the entire thing - dont be afraid to distort and cut sections to get it all in.
3: Dont, likewise, try to recreate the entire world - it's just too big, and you'll never get it finished...
4: good luck.

"gobshite" was not so much name-calling, as sarcasm of your disdain at long answers.

But, let's see. who's the one without any manners calling peoples work "crap" and seeming to think that long replies are too "highbrow"; instantly dismissing that people who are from Egypt or Poland aren’t capable of understanding the complexities of the Irish nation.

Ah, yes, its You.
So, I think it's pretty clear that you're little more than the worst sort of bigoted, xenophobic scum.

And for that sort of person, I don’t give a rats arse about sensitivity, you've clearly shown yourself to be the sort of narrow-minded, hate-filled filth that continues to pour fuel on the fires of conflict that have raged for generations.

We will not redesign the perspective we have chosen to take for you, for hardline republicans, firm loyalists, ex-soldiers, or *any* other point of view, or any person.

We will be neutral. We will produce this from one perspective. This is not a contradiction, but a simple fact - it is physically impossible to create a narrative playing out both sides simultaneously without creating a storyline that is incoherently disjointed and effectively schizophrenic. But design clearly doesn’t matter to you, as, like some bellowing "no surrender!" Ian Paisely lookalike, you are the sort of bigot who will project your own spiteful and warped perspective into anything you read that isn’t your own personal wankfest supporting exactly the stance you take.

Since you will ignore or doubt anything that is said, there is no point discussing this with you, and I politely ask you to ignore this mod from now on, and cease spamming the discussion.

If we fail miserably, then you may gloat away to yourself. If we do create something, be it amazing or utter rubbish, then you can rest assured that we will not force it down your throat and make you play it.

Goodbye.

I suppose I could do the short, lowbrow reply.

"gobshite"

But since that's more a statement of opinion, I'll make a few more longwinded comments.

So you're assuming that as this is a work in progress (you know, that thing that comes before completion, generally. I dont know about you, but generally, the only perfectly finished things I produce come out of my arse. Much like your commentary so far...), it's unfinished?

Good one. I presume that you also consider Tolkien's drafts of LOTR, published by his son are "unfinished crap" too?

And yes, Reality check. I am comparing videogames to the music of U2 or Elgar or the films of Fellini or Bergmann, or the Literature of Chaucer or Tolstoy. For they are the same - art. And while the Citizen Kane of games is yet to be made, it will be, someday.

And yes, perhaps this little mod will be more Mills and Boon than Tolstoy, perhaps it'll be closer to Schwartzenegger's acting prowess than Geilgud...
But, frankly, that's what you get with an amateur team. some of what we do will be below standard for professionals. Much of it will be as good as professional work... because that's what I do for a living, and I'm making sure those members who are'nt already of industry-standard are trained to the highest level possible on the job.
And quite simply, we will aim for the absolute highest standards, because that way, we might well fall short, but we'll have a lot of fun trying.
And, unlike places I work modders can do a subject like this without risking a 50 million dollar budget if we do fail horribly.

That "long-past history" has bubbled under too many generations But I think all would hope that the worst of the troubles had been consigned to history, that solutions could be reached by words and dialogue, and that civilian deaths can end sooner than later. Unfortunately, there are too many who hold onto the old grudges. You may not care to know, but I have experienced a shadow of the violence Northern Ireland has suffered as a whole firsthand, been attacked in my teenage years, and experienced the mindless hate and anger. This is not something I know just from history books.

If you doubt that we are being neutral to all standpoints, frankly, I dont give a rats arse. We will be neutral. we will be painting it from one perspective - there is no way to make such a narrative from multiple perspectives without it being an incoherent mess. if there is one thing that I will not tolerate in game design, it's bad design, and frankly, if that will give us accusations of bias, then I don’t care, as you cannot appease everyone. Design by committee just results in a garbled trainwreck.

If you feel that the troubles will be treated as entertainment, then by all means, dismiss our work. And that of films such as "Bloody Sunday", "Blown Away", "In the Name of the Father", "Patriot Games" "The Long Good Friday", and so many more. Dismiss with disdain music, from U2, or the Boomtown Rats or Undertones. Dismiss art, music, and culture. For that is what the troubles are - they are the underpinning for social creativity and expression - of anger and love, division and unity, forgiveness and revenge, despair and hope, care and peace.
In that videogames are no different a medium than cinema or literature.

And that is exactly what we intend to create - narrative that challenges.

and frankly, those who have no idea of what we're trying to do, and ignore or dismiss out of hand the efforts we make with sincerity are those I consider with disdain.

One-word answers are not really my thing, particularly not when regarding something as complex as this. So screw brevity.

First off, How dare you imply that because of a name, any member of our team is going to be ignorant of the history. Or, should I also assume that with a name like "obsession", you're clearly going to be someone who obsesses over the events of the troubles?
How are we going to depict discomfort? in short, by care, by scriptwriting, an awful lot of dialogue, and an awful lot of cutscenes, animation, and filmic techniques to portray character and depth.
my comment on soldiers' deaths only reflects a "clear focus" in your own warped mirror, I'm afraid. Clearly, brevity of comment allows assumption. My full statement is that as this is a mod consisting of the military aspects of the troubles, rather than the longer-running civilian sectarianism, the deaths of soldiers brought what was history back into sharp and immediate current affairs. It takes what was to be a look at a period of history, and conveys the resumed threat and tension onto it. And that changes the light in which the narrative design can be conveyed, not by us as designers, but by the players, whose awareness of current affairs will override the immersion into 1983, and a very different era.
It does not, in any sense, convey my support for the occupation of garrisons, nor even my support for the nation's military. My opposition or support of the UK government in this is irrelevant, and will no more alter my portrayal than it would my portrayal of, for instance a mod of a young Argentine soldier in 1982 sent to liberate the Malvinas, or a Algerian dissident fighting to free his homeland from French rule. Or my portrayal of a republican freedom fighter against the English occupation - which, perhaps I should point out we could have just as easily done - and infact, made the gameplay easier. Instead we chose to portray one aspect of a narrative - the aspect we are doing.

At no point are we setting up the british forces as "good guys". we are depicting them as people called to do their duty, and intended to depict their personal discomforts, having fought in conflicts like the falklands, of then having to face people in part of the United Kingdom.

That said, with the burst of violence this week, what was long-past history has resurfaced in a manner which is extremely uncomfortable. We are reassessing the subject matter with great care to reconsider if the mod's planned subject matter remains appropriate.

We have taken great efforts to ensure that the history of northern ireland has been studied, emphasising that all members have an indepth understanding of all sides of the conflict. We have, as stated repeatedly in our comments and description, been taking pains to ensure that all sides are depicted as equally wrong.

Yes, I will repeat that. Equally Wrong. there are no "good guys" or "bad guys", there are simply those doing their duty, and those following their political stance. We are not making any political view on the conflict, and aimed to present it solely as a reflection on a past era. Until this week, a decade and more had passed since the last soldier's death, peace processes were long-settled in such a way that depiction of the past could be done with sensitive care. Does this week's incidents mark a new wave in the Troubles? frankly, I dont know, but if it does, what was history becomes current affairs, and at such a stage we will be forced to reconsider our stance.

Until such a time as we know how this burst of activity will threaten the peace in N.I, however, we maintain our approach, of creating a depiction of a past era, neutral to republican and loyalist standpoints.

Please do not assume we intend to trample roughshod over the thousands killed by the Troubles for entertainment.

*headdesk*

ok, where do I start. What we think we're going to add. We're going to add and create what we have to, to create the mod we envisage. Parts will be cut out, that is inevitable, and part of the design process as we refine down the loose ideas into a tightly driven storyline.
Weapon attachments, the Trilux SUIT scopes were extensively used by rank and file soldiers. and what is to stop us using attachments for unexpected elements: on a L96A1 Rifle, why not modify the under-barrel grenade launcher tag in the game engine to instead model a Parker-Hale bipod which reduces weapon sway in scope sight? Perfectly possible.
M16s? No, however the civilian version, the Armalite AR-15 was extensively used by IRA paramilitaries, supplied from the US and smuggled in, and it’s easier to list it as M16 for simplicity.
Moreover, the M16's carbine variant, the Colt Commando was used by British Special Forces in the 1982 Falklands war.
The MP5-SD was used as a replacement for the Sten 9mm Suppressed from 1981-2 onward.
The Special Forces have already been outlined, but if you've never heard of them, there are some friendly chaps called "the SAS" who might want to explain some history of who the US special forces were taught by...

"If it doesn't have a giant, walking, firebreathing robot of margret thatcher"

****! the design doc's been leaked! Rewrite, guys, fast!

well, it'll not be a world as alive as, for example, GTA, or a MMO, of course, but we'd like to aim to have civilians in many areas, and make the world feel much more lived in than crysis' desolate spaces. Part of our design process is working out what we can do in terms of NPCs maybe opposing factions of NPCs that players can observe, etc.

I think it's possible, I can foresee me asking old friends who work at Rockstar about AI routines for civilians...

most likely radio, cassete players, maybe...

pretty much a case that the player might walk past a room and hear a radio in the background, just filtering through the door, or a car parked with the radio still on as they pass. little details to make the world feel alive.

little audio cues.

While I'd like to have Joy division, they really were'nt significant enough at the time to warrant significant airplay - they were very influential, but only with that 20/20 hindsight. Likewise, the Smiths, who in late '83 were still pretty much unknown, unsigned and not really notable. I'd like to avoid Visage and Adam Ant as both are slightly earlier, and very much the london scene for '81-82, and aren't quite the audio metaphor I'm looking for in the ambience. Duran Duran, possible, but I think Spandau Ballet's "to cut a long story short" is more appropriate in audio style for what I imagine.
I do see a place for Irish/Northern Irish bands like U2, Undertones, Stiff Little Fingers and the Boomtown Rats, but it's a case of tying in the soundscape to work right... that's the hard bit.

there are, after all, hundreds of amazing tracks that could be used - Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean", and "Beat it", The Eurythmics "Sweet Dreams (Are made of these)", Human League "Temptation", Kim Wilde "Kids in America", Men at Work, even the Sisters of Mercy's "Temple of Love"... but it's having ones which are appropriate to the ambience we're trying to convey a feel, which will make or break the mod's atmosphere. and that's why we've got a short-list of slightly darker toned tracks that are also a sub-context for parts of the narrative...

and of course, a much longer list of ones that are'nt quite perfect, but which everyone would like to hear... (no Flock of Seagulls, I promise)

As I said... "Queen Bitch". god what a track. though I personally prefer the late 70's Thin White Duke, burnt out on heroin, for that empty, bleak sound.

For the Mod, however, the intention is to focus on unobtrusive instrumental composition for ingame, and to have background music around locations all dating to 1981 to late '83, with maybe a later level or two set in spring 1984 having music from then, as it's an audio metaphor for the era.

Its a very difficult path to go along, as we'd like the audio to hint at game play, and also to help set the scene, but the danger is of turning itself into a parody - 20/20 hindsight is a great thing for picking out the best tracks, but an accurate portrayal of '83 would also include some god-awful stuff like Bonnie Tyler, and Billy Joel. The same applies for the visual style - it could be incredibly easy to end up with the populations of sleepy Irish villages looking like they're straight out of Vice City, with shoulder pads Annie Lennox and Steve Strange would've been envious of.... and of course, that's something we must avoid, the fact the media portrays only a small element of the London scenes, while the rest of the UK was dingy, grey and dull - I can see more parkas, drainpipe trousers and turtle-necks than shoulder pads and eye-liner, being a realistic representation, after all...

Though I have been thinking a bit about a single character design inspired by Joanne Catherall's look in the Human League's "don't you want me?" video (here on Youtube.com ) as a good character, perhaps... that, and the Rover SD1. mm. classic.

technically, china girl was Bowie and Iggy Pop, written when they were both coming clean from heroin in Berlin. It was recorded for Iggy's "the Idiot" album, and then Bowie put a more commercial version on Let's Dance, so that Iggy, who was almost bankrupt at the time would get royalties, and help him back on his feet.
which is a pretty damn impressive move, I think.

currently I'm indulging in my sick, deviant liking for 80's pop, and the playlist of possible ambience tracks (which may give a hint at some of the plotlines) includes the following...

The one peice that is out of period is Ed-Alleyne Johnson "Oxford Suite pt4" from the Purple Electric Violin concierto, which we might use for a trailer, as it's very evocative.
( Youtube.com for a linky)

Ultravox: Dancing With Tears in My Eyes
( Youtube.com for a viewing)

Frankie Goes to Hollywood: Two Tribes
(Frankie says Relax, it's at Youtube.com )

Spandau Ballet: To Cut a Long Story Short
( to cut the link short: Youtube.com )

U2: New Year's Day
( Youtube.com )

Bowie: China Girl
(Oh baby, just you shut your mouth and watch Youtube.com ) (though I really want to work out how we can justify some of Bowie's berlin period as it suits the feel - Low, or Heroes. Or Queen Bitch. God, Mick Ronson's gitar riff...)

and on top of that, I'd like to try to see a little Undertones perhaps.

"And you and i know that the Real life is GTA!"

I can say with absolute certainty that my colleagues who work at Rockstar North would consider that comment complete nonsense.

as do I.

If you want to find a mod where you get to kill everyone, look elsewhere, and stop spamming comments here, thankyou.

at no point are we portraying the IRA, or any republican side as "bad guys".

at no point are we portraying the army as "good guys".
and equally, we are not portraying the republicans as the good guys.

we're specifically setting out from the design outset to present all stances on the conflict equally, and without prejudgement. The player may take the role of a british army soldier, but we're ensuring that the opposing side is not only represented fairly, but their cause is given equal merit and worth.

Frankly, if you want a mod set in NI where you get to blow up soldiers and loyalists, OR a mod where you get to gun down republicans, look elsewhere. we're not designing the gameplay to be an on-rails combat experience, but an exploration of one fictitious story, inspired by history, for a period of history thankfully behind us all.

given it's the vertex shader only, rather than the full textured one...
a: it's irrelevant. I could've shaded it a nice baby pink if I felt like it with two mouseclicks....
b: the vast majority of those in circulation globally are that ****** olive beige which sometimes looks more like catsick orange depending on the light.
Since I'm working of photographic reference material, that's the one I'm using to make it look correct, and the lighting in-engine will tint accordingly...

which is exactly why we're not condoning any side.

Erm.... right.

As a developer, I'd argue the exact opposite. a product is designed, and developed, from storyboard and script through to finished work.

the engine used to run that narrative is irrelevant, the engine is a tool to allow the product to be realised, no more, no less.

Personally, to kill for any cause is amoral - and that's something I want to emphasise in the design content - that the events are based on real-life environments, where actions have consequences.

Sadly, I dont think a FPS with no combat would be popular, so compromise has to be made. So the subject we've chosen is that with the minimum combat.

Within that framework, to create a game based on the premise of a republican activist is to entertain by the death and suffering of victims of war, and that, as a games developer, I consider even more morally repugnant than murder.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but in the context of entertainment, neither is acceptable subject matter.

and that is final.

I understand that your affiliations see a British soldier as "the enemy". That will not change the design decision which we have chosen to take, as our selected perspective of the subject matter. I hope you can have the understanding and discretion to accept this in good grace.

As Squiggers has stated on several occasions, we are not judging either side, and have politely requested that debate of both republican and loyalist causes be debated elsewhere.

I repeat this request now: Please cease with arguing over the decision to represent the narrative from a point of view different to your own. We will not redesign the gameplay to tailor to your, or any other's political standpoint. We will not enter into debate on the right or wrong of either side. On grounds of impartiality, we do not acknowledge a moral superiority to republican, loyalist, nationalist, separatist, military or any other cause.
We accept that this design will not portray forces to the satisfaction of all. Frankly, I have no interest in pandering to the demands or whims of anyone over a game design. As a professional studio designer, I do not design by committee, be it in my paid work, or in my free time in a product like this.

the problem with playing both sides is simply that to do so would be such a massive amount of work, as to make it impossible to do... the design is already ambitious and likely to take a long time for a team to produce.

Furthermore, in many ways, the british army were restricted in their actions - throttled by the bureaucracy of laws which governed their action. What we're wanting is to create a game where going in guns blazing would be instant failure, where it's as much observation and patience as aggression or response.
Additionally, as you yourself state, you do not condone murder; yet that is exactly what the paramilitaries, on both sides did commit, and often against targets picked out for their affiliations, to the extent of the murder of people who showed hospitality to soldiers. To take that brutality and make it a game would, frankly, be distasteful at best, downright offensive to many, more likely.

What we are trying to do is create a narrative story against the background of the troubles. We're doing the best to try to portray the events neutrally... I certainly see the depiction of terrible acts on both sides. But what makes the British side preferable from a narrative point of view is that the soldiers were stationed there to do a job; it was their duty. the paramilitaries chose to perform the actions they did, it was their decision to perform those acts. And having the player perform those acts as a matter of duty, I personally feel mitigates the impact of those actions.

To kill in a conflict by choice is murder, to kill in conflict by duty is no less a murder, but it is slightly more morally justifiable, regardless of anyone's ideological stance - and it's that slim difference which I feel allows us to traverse the moral quagmire, and justify the creation of narratives inspired by this period of modern history.

"dont if your irish dont look forward toa mod where you play as sas"

As a player, of a game, I ideally hope that we will end up in a position where players will, on reflection be glad they were not SAS, or Rebublicans.

The principal emphasis for this design, is that none leave war unscathed, and that the violence on all sides was tragic.

Too many people have painted false impressions of the conflict, partisan to one or another side. The reality is that many lives were ruined by conflict, that hatred and dogma are more grievous weapons than the armalite or L1A1, and more insidious by far.

This could easily be a mod portraying the IRA's struggle, and in many ways, a far easier game to create. But what I want to create is the atmosphere I remember from my childhood, watching the Troubles, watching the social divisions that tore Thatcher's britian apart, the soldiers who hated the idea of serving on a frontline in their own country, a civil war that tore communities and cities apart.

We do not need blind supporters, waving the flag of rhetoric for any one faction, for everyone was a casualty in Northern Ireland. What we need is those to understand that we want to create as much the ambience, and the futility of conflict, as the perceived glories and dogma.

and perhaps, we can think for those whose lives were lost, and be glad that we can make a game of something which was once bloody reality.

I suspect it's fair to say that the date remains slightly flexiable at this point. in the early drafts I've read 1983-85 inclusive, and therefore I've been looking at both the good old fashioned FN-Fal Imperial pattern L1A1 with Trilux L2A2 Optical sight, and the L85A1.
As a designer, the L1A1 appeals more, as it is a period weapon, and in using it, it immediately dates the gameplay to the past in a manner that the still-contemporary L85 cannot.
(and a little cynic in me also says that I would'nt want to be fighting with a first-generation L85. bloody awful firearm, it was. )

Likewise, with much of the graphic design, from a Mk1 Golf or a Mk3 Ford Escort, RUC ford granadas, transistor radios and grimy paint, creating the ambience and feel of the era is as important to creating an exceptional world that immerses the player, where the gritty reality of the thatcher era, of unrest and change, and the duty of soldiers often uncomfortable with having to serve on active duty in their own country is portrayed.

that's the general method....