Anti-fascist fighters relaxing after a hard day image - Orange_Tomato

Your referring to the OP right?

I'm referring to the fact that the arrogant german is so mad about russians that when he has nothing else to blame them for, he just post the image of the group of heiling "russians" (= the people who had russian military clothing that you can buy anywhere on the internet) and that description... uh, you just have to admit that it is really hilarious. :P

You do realize that half the stuff he posts is mostly for entertainment and not really 100% serious?

Can you explain why he is being arrogant? Because it seems (I'm not saying it is) that you're offended by this or something and resort to name calling (which is low).

These guys are Pro-Russian Rebels who yes, most likely brought the military uniforms off the Internet. Not Russian soldiers, it doesn't say anything about it here.

Yes it is pretty funny though...

Well, he keep says that the russians are those bad guys who fight in Ukraine... Even if other people tell him that he's not right, he doesn't care or listen to them, he only sees his "truth" as he is proud german. Hmmm, in my opinion, it's enough to call him arrogant.

Well, to put it this way Frosty, while Ukraine does bear blame for the conflict (they were the ones who started it), Russia is no exception. In fact Russia also bears blame for escalating it and breaking International Law. There are no good guys versus bad guys in this conflict the media on either side keeps telling us about. Both sides are guilty of their actions.

What Orange_Tomato says is somewhat true although I have to admit he is somewhat biased. He is actually a Ukrainian who lives in Germany(from what I've heard). Because of this does it come as to any surprise of his opinions/viewpoints?

He does seem to believe what he believes is the truth, though there are plenty of other people here who do the same thing as explained and the result is a heated argument.

I wouldn't call him arrogant, patriotic is a better definition.

i'd call him nazi, that's better definition. nationalist.

i see no sense of patriotism in spreading false propaganda

Please, don't call him a Nazi because he is Ukrainian. He clearly loves his country, and he fights for the truth. Not patriotic enough you think?

"i see no sense of patriotism in spreading false propaganda"
Double standards, you love your country (no problem with that) your leader, and claim you are a patriot because you claim to uphold the "truth". When in fact all you do is repeat the same story the Russian media did, which is propaganda in itself (I hate to say it). So called "NATO backed Ukrainian Nazis committing genocide against ethnic Russians"? Give me break.

Before you go ahead and accuse me of being a Fascist (I'm not), just remember that I know all about Pro-Russian users (or trolls) who regard ANYTHING that doesn't flow along the Russian line as "Western Propaganda", regardless of how well-researched it is. The West does bear some blame though.

you are from Australia, right? you know nothing about usraine, besides the second-hand opinion from mass-media, yet you are trying to persuade me in my judgments.

this guy, orangetomato, i had "conversation" with him long before you appeared. and it ended with excessive trolling (as it usually happens, when i meet zombied ukie nationalists surfing the web).

>"he fights for truth" - lies. he's deaf to truth.

>"you claim to uphold the "truth" - i do not remember i claimed smth like that, i'm just tracking about 50 mods here on ModDB. i opened to discussions tho, and i do have personal opinion concerning some things

>"So called "NATO backed Ukrainian Nazis committing genocide against ethnic Russians"? Give me break." - typical westener's judgment, yet you hit the point: indeed, "NATO backed Ukrainian Nazis committing genocide against ethnic Russians". technically, the civil war is going between russian militants from the east and nazis from the west (very symbolic, isn't it?). ordinary ukrainians are taken hostages by nazi junta which came to pover in result of coup d'etat. i don't feel pity for them, i support pro-russian rebels.

to conclude, couple of words about "double standards". as i have mentioned in our earlier conversation, i don't have any. if someone support nazi regime on usraine, most probably he's nazi himself. you are not, you just misinformed by propaganda. it's ok, no problems for me, and i don't fell like kool-aid man to break through the wall, saving you from your ignorance, supplying you with proves, facts and information i do posess. orangetomato is different story tho. he's perfectly aknowledged what's going on, yet he support nazis. he's nazi, believe me... or not.

Yes, I am from Australia. I might not know exactly whats going on in Ukraine. But thanks to the Internet I am able to gain information about it from professional journalists, independent media and experts. So what is your point on "I do not know anything about Ukraine"?
Ignorance is Strength strikes again

So you don't remember saying something about upholding the "truth"? Last time I checked you said you were "struggling against Anti-Russian propaganda".

So there is fascists committing genocide against ethnic Russians in Ukraine you say? It was a coup d'etat you say? Bah, prove it with credible videos and links. Last time I checked the whole thing was just a big hoax used by the Russian media as a means to sway public opinion towards intervention. I'm not gonna believe any of it if you quote Russian MSM, because I know for a fact not to trust State controlled media.

Russia has always called its enemies "Fascists and/or Nazi's" since WWII regardless if they are or not, nothing's changed.

While there are radical right-wing groups (Svoboda Party) in Ukraine causing trouble. The violence scale is blown out of proportion, the threat of fascism in Ukraine is no more than that in Russia. Also current Ukrainian government is hardly fascist: En.wikipedia.org
I know its Wikipedia, but its still credible information.

"you just misinformed by propaganda"
Lol, actually its you who is misinformed by your own media, mate. If you think Russia's media reports the facts, you have issues. Same if you think all of the Western media is "propaganda". Stay off the state controlled RT (don't know if you watch it) and other channels pushing pro-Kremlin/anti-Western lines and actually look at some independent news sources that are neither pro-Western nor Pro-Russian. You have Internet access, do some research.

I have neither the time nor interest to "re-inform" you on what is going on. Only you are responsible for what you believe nasorog. Its the paranoia of many Russians who think the USA is out to get them when the average US citizen couldn't care less about your country.

Geez, and I thought you were half-okay NationalGuard. But no, just another zombie who thinks he knows more about Russia, Russian interests, Russian media (hey, btw did you know there's like an absolute truck load of internal media in Russia that you don't see because you don't speak Russian? You and Orange_Revolutions seem to think RT and Pravda are the only outlets that exist. Trust me, there's plenty of alternate opinions there, you'd probably get on with the liberast 5% quite well) and Russian agenda better than any Russian. Nah bro, you stick with your "independents" like VICE (they wanted to nuke Russia just recently) or whatever the hell you kids watch/read these days (I almost forgot Bellingcat, sorry Orange) maybe a little Moscow Times if you want the Russian perspective... Have you even heard of Stephen Cohen? Any Russia scholars in the West that you actually listen to? And I'm not talking State Dep. cronies, I'm talking the ones that were there during the Cold War that actively conversing with the Russian side.

You call the Russians paranoid after the economic rape of the 90s? When Yeltsin rolled in and murdered people on the streets of Moscow while the Western Media took photos and praised him as a hero? While he helped American NGOs bring the entire nation to it's knees? You call them paranoid after the destruction of Yugoslavia? Iraq? Libya? And countless others? You call them paranoid when NATO starts surrounding Russia with countless bases and missile "defence" shields, with absolutely no valid rhyme or reason? You dismiss the entire revolution in Ukraine as a Russian fabrication when American NGOs poured billions, literal billions of dollars into people and movements such as Svoboda? Maybe you missed the leaked phone call between the Estonian minister and Victoria Nuland, talking about how the snipers that ignited Maidan were killing both Berkut Police and the rioters, or the one between her and Pyatt discussing just how they'd manipulate Ukraine's supposed new found "democracy". Did you miss the Odessa massacre? You know they had a memorial service just a few days ago, guess what? It was broken up by neo-Nazi thugs, in the new "Democratic" Ukraine. They also had some marches not so long ago calling for an end to the ceasefire, because they wanted to get on with killing more kids, "Evil Russkies" and stuff. I mean, we get videos like this coming out of the country now: Youtube.com

"Justify Russian intervention." Proof? Please tell me where this intervention is? I really want to know how the entire Russian Army sucks so damn bad at taking over a country with a sub-par demoralised (and force mobilised) "army". I mean Orange has a video of a Pantsir-S1 driving through a town somewhere, possibly Lugansk, (says it's geolocated by ELA, except his source uses solely ELA and tends to have a habit of doctoring its photos etc. also the head guy was involved with the Atlantic Council, and also got quoted by the head of NATO staff as the go to guy, that's like the Kremlin saying go to Russia Insider or Colonel Cassad because they're a shining example of citizen journalism, I mean would that trigger alarm bells, or is that just me?) we have some photos and video of T-72B3s pretty much one confirmed photo is positively a B3 (even that is a hard call), oh and UAVs being used by the NAF as well. That's about it. Yup, there's your Russian Intervention in all it's glory, sprinkle it with a few volunteers and perhaps some help from the GRU occasionally and what do you have yourself? Oh perhaps a country who is directly on the border of another country that is having a bloody meltdown, with one side being heavily and openly backed by NATO... I don't how much crystal clearer than that I can get to you to be honest. I would love to see your reaction if the same thing was happening in Mexico, don't fool yourself for an instant, the US would be clambering over themselves to bomb the absolute hell out of the persons stirring up the unrest, sovereignty be damned.

The US sees Russia's rising power as a threat to its hegemony, along with China. The only way it sees that it can deal with this is by yelling brashly and smashing things with its big stick, like a 5 year old throwing a tantrum, except millions of people get killed.

Sorry to break it to you buddy, but America isn't the "good guy", they haven't been since 1946. Get with the times. Then again I'm talking to a guy that has the symbol of the US National guard as his avatar and the Aussie and US flags holding hands in his banner.

So, now your getting involved? I thought you would come along and try to waste my time answering all of these posts. Fact is, I'm only gonna sum it up all in one post. If you really want to talk to me about it, PM me, simple as that. No need to, as you and nasorog call it "SPAM" the comment section. Oh, and nice job with your cleverly disguised personal attacks.

Um, yes I am aware that they're more than two main Russian mass media outlets. According to Wikipedia, there are about a total of 93,000 media outlets in Russia. The problem is Spudd, you see, the most famous/watched Russia media outlets are also the most untrustworthy. Reporters Without Borders as of 2015 ranked Russian media 152 out of 180 (very bad). I don't know if you trust/believe it, but you can't deny something is wrong with Russia's mass media. Index.rsf.org

"You and Orange_Revolutions"
Lol

Yes I have heard of Stephen Cohen. Even though he is one-sided, he does have a voice that is credible. He does have some good points though. Whats wrong with Bellingcat and The Moscow Times? VICE is better than MSM due to its journalism (not saying its perfect though).

Why do I call Russian's paranoid? Because their media plays a big part in painting the US as a "destroyer of worlds" of sorts and the people (generally) believe it. While I might be worried if the US is getting involved in world conflicts they shouldn't, how does this mean they're posing a threat to the very existence of Russia?

"destruction of Yugoslavia? Iraq? Libya? And countless others?NATO starts surrounding Russia with countless bases and missile "defence" shields, with absolutely no valid rhyme or reason?"
^^ Whataboutism. We are talking about Russia here, not US foreign policy or what NATO is doing (name one NATO country that borders Russia and poses a threat to it).

What does the leaked phone calls provide as evidence that the US was really making a "regime change" in Ukraine? And I find it ludicrous how you said the US/EU funded Radical Parties like Svoboda. I have seen evidence to prove that, unless you can prove to me that was the case.

"Proof? Please tell me where this intervention is?"
I could provide you with stacks photos of Russia soldiers for a start, but you would then dismiss them with Cherry Picking arguments. "Oh, that photo is from such and such and therefore not proper evidence". I honestly do not have the time to answer all of your questions. So leave them to PM.

And yes, the US would be freaking out if something like this happened in Mexico. I agree on this.

I never said USA "is the good guy" did I? Nor did I say Russia "is the bad guy". What does my avatar and background picture have to do with who I am? I see this sort of argument all over the Internet. By that logic I can change the topic and accuse you of being a Kremlin Apologist because you have images of Russian Aircraft and think differently (which would be absurd).

Cleverly disguised personal attacks: Um sure, if you want to see it that way, I assure you I wasn't trying to disguise anything, and was attempting to be as direct as possible. Calling you a zombie isn't a veiled insult, I was speaking out of frustration at seeing yet another Westerner attempting to educate a Russian on his own country, it's called a superiority complex and was shown very clearly when you automatically called Nasorog a "troll". (except for the Orange_Revolutions, but that wasn't cleverly disguised in my mind, you are free to call that whatever you like)

I'm going to link that phone call between Pyatt so that you can listen to it again, take note of the people they are discussing as potential puppets for installing to power: Youtube.com
What's funny is that the MSM focussed on the "F*ck the EU" part, not the overall conversation which is strikingly insidious. Please note the people that are being discussed are the ones that were ultimately installed. This is not democratic in the slightest. My links to the US financing extremist elements in Ukraine you won't believe, even though the writers are independent of any major press outlet, but whatever, here they are:
Projectcensored.org
Zerohedge.com’s-deep-financial-ties-ukrainian-oligarch-who-pushed-closer-ties-e
Russia-insider.com
Firstlook.org

Commander of the neo-Nazi "Donbass" battallion Semen Semenchenko at the International Republican Institute Russia-insider.com with Tennessee Senator Robert Corker. He was also received by the NDI (National Democratic Institute), the international branches of the two main American political parties, and met with democratic Senator Robert Menendez and republican senator Robert Corker.

"Menendez and Corker are the two senators who have sponsored the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, a bill that will allocate money to provide assistance to Ukraine, including the supply of weapons. Radar, anti-tank weapons, drones, communications systems and many other useful things for our army."

One of the main goals of his trip was to get training and much more from the US military. Judging by his FB post, it seems he has accomplished this.
"Yesterday I signed a contract to organize training courses for the fighters and officers of the battalion Donbass by mobile groups of instructors from the United States, held by military that are not currently in service.
They will work under the traditional training system used by the Navy Seals and Delta Force. Standards have been developed for each department (reconnaissance, special forces, security, etc.) and for each non-commissioned officer.
Particular attention will be paid to the individual training and teamwork. We will use the maximum number of practical exercises.
Another important point is the training of sergeants (NCOs) to allow it to act independently and managing a team.
The instructors will also be used to prepare the internal security forces, and that training is one of the forms of indirect assistance that Ukraine is receiving."

"Whataboutism" My turn to laugh. If we're going to have a serious discussion you can't simply dismiss those conflicts as whataboutisms. "Name a NATO nation that [is a threat] to Russia." NATO is an alliance set up to "contain" Russia (read limit, aggravate, strangle economic potential, and attempt to neuter the Russian Strategic Nuclear Triad) a single nation poses no threat to Russian sovereignty, but all combined they just about think they can bully Russia as much as they see fit. Do you realise that elimination of Russian nuclear capability would see the end of MAD, and allow for the US to simply nuke Russia with impunity? This is complete nonsense of course because that is completely impossible, but it is what the Washington hawks have been trying to achieve in Eastern Europe, so caught up in their own belief of technological superiority.

If I can debunk your stacks of photos with clearly defined evidence to the contrary then aren't you a wilful fool to continue believing in a Russian intervention, wouldn't you say? If you're scared of being proven wrong... I don't know why you would bother conversing anything with anyone. Being open to a change of perspective is what brings us to debate. "I don't have the time..." Then why are you here in the first place? This is a massive topic, if you can't stay with it to discuss the counter-arguments then I'm confused as to why one would start/enter the topic. Me private messaging you is not going to change the time input required to discuss this either.

(exceeded the 5000 character limit :/ )

"The US would be freaking out..." Not only would they be freaking out, they'd be full on bombing the living crap out of whoever the perpetrators were. By this standard Russia has been incredibly restrained in its policy toward Ukraine. Indeed, many Russians consider it too restrained, as day by day more civilians are killed in the Donbas, they wish their forces would roll right on into Kiev. Gazprom has still been supplying gas at hugely discounted price, (although, a cut off date has now finally been announced) and in fact Ukraine's largest business client is still Russia, something that could easily have been changed to devastating effect for the country. This at the very least shows there is a genuine care for the innocents in Ukraine coming from Russia.

I have been lead to believe that you do indeed view the US as the good guy, or the least of the bad guys. I was harsh in my prior comment, as I thought you were simply dismissing the entire situation in Ukraine, and still in fact denying the rise of a concerning Neo-Nazi movement. (Which, by the way, is starting to run out of the little government control there was, recently killing police and civilians in Mukachevo).

This is a very good article, with links to back up nearly every statement it makes, while raising some excellent points. In all kindness, I think you'd do well to read it: Redpilltimes.com

*** The Moscow Times is a Finnish owned newspaper, that tends to provide dodgy Russian economists a platform to spout diatribe (that has proven to be incorrect over, and over, again), and does the same for various 5th columnists in Russia such as Alexei Venediktov.

Bellingcat has seemed initially to have some credibility due to its supposed crowd sourcing for its articles. This is blown out of the water when some of the photos taken have been analysed by professionals and show definite signs of photoshopping. Bellingcat almost relies entirely on Error Level Analysis, which can only ever be accurate to a certain extent, it is also easily manipulated by the people doing the analysis or condensing the supposed evidence. Elliot Higgins, the frontman of the operation has done work with the Atlantic Council (obviously pro-West, no other way of looking at it), been quoted by head of NATO Philip Breedlove as the go to guy on citizen journalism (tell me that isn't dodgy -_-), and is also the writer of some very classy tweets under the hashtag "PutinMovie". The whole story can be found here: Russia-insider.com (again, don't be scared off by the medium of which gives you this, they are crowd sourced, and have independent writers from all over the globe).

crowdfunded* Russia Insider is crowdfunded. Hurp derp.

I know its a late reply, but like I said I do not generally have a lot of time for lengthy debate. You may argue "then why are you here in the first place?" but the thing is that the Internet is addicting, someone has to break the silence and if I don't reply then I may be called a coward.

Unfortunately, due to my country's **** poor Internet (only made worse by our inept Prime Minister) I cannot watch videos at certain times of the day. Even when I can I have to go somewhere. I am being 100% serious here Spudd, and I'm not making up excuses to not watch it... how unfortunate :(.

The ProjectCensored.org was an interesting (though short) read. The Interest was also a good one. They did provide some evidence behind US funding but the other two links you provided are less than convincing due to the somewhat "attack" mode they have in their articles. Nonetheless, I am still skeptical of this claim due to the comments contradicting views.

Well, yes. The US has been providing training to the Ukrainian Armed Forces. While this would make them more effective, this does have the negative effect of provoking Russia and this is the last thing the US needs to do. Hopefully, they won't send weapons to the Ukrainian Forces as this is seriously pushing the boundaries.

"If we're going to have a serious discussion you can't simply dismiss those conflicts as whataboutisms."
Why not? You were the one who brought them up. Do you even know what the term "Whataboutism" is? Whenever someone makes a criticism/s of Russia the response from one is usually with a "What about Western event X?", "What if the West did event X?", what about/what if someone else did something else. You know what the reasons were behind those conflicts and what the outcome was Spudd (I'm sure of it). This is a tactic used to change the topic at hand and is an example of Tu Quoque, a logical fallacy. As I said, we are talking about the topic of Russia, not US Foreign Policy.
En.wikipedia.org
Rationalwiki.org
Economist.com
America.aljazeera.com
Themoscowtimes.com
And many more...

Also, my evidence of "Russian Intervention"? Well, like I said. I have photos of Russian soldiers. I know they are most likely in the Crimea at the time, but as Crimea was Ukrainian territory for some time until recently (I know it was originally Russian) technically speaking they were Russian soldiers in Ukraine:
Static3.businessinsider.com
Cray24.com
I.telegraph.co.uk
I3.mirror.co.uk
Static4.businessinsider.com
Gannett-cdn.com
En.wikipedia.org
They aren't Ukrainian soldiers, Ukrainian soldiers wear different uniforms and helmets. And the Separatists would never have the sort of "standard" dress these soldiers do. There is more of these images by Google Searching "Russian Soldiers in Ukraine". You may ask "where is images of them fighting?" Ever heard of Maskirovka? Russians are very clever with Military deception. Perhaps the Russian casualties within the country mean anything? Theguardian.com
Businessinsider.com
Maybe reading some articles convince you?

En.wikipedia.org
Yes I know its Wikipedia, but it contains more than enough credible information, so I don't care.
Theguardian.com
Contains info on captured soldiers
Theguardian.com
On a Russian soldier who tells a story of him fighting there
Forbes.com
On why US and EU declare Russia has intervened. Note the article is somewhat diatribe, try not to be offended.

What I say may STILL not convince you, but thats fine. Because like I said with your friend earlier, only you are responsible for what you believe. If I happened to offend you on anything, I'm sorry. But I only care about the truth, and I still stand firm that Russia has intervened in Ukraine, despite the denials.

I02.fotocdn.net

chelyabinsk meteorite - visible for couple of seconds, yet was recorded by dozens of cameras
russian army - thousands of soldiers are waging war in usraine for about an year, yet no single photo evidence

NationalGuard, give up this. you seems has hard time understanding what russian army is, and what it isn't

Excuse me nasorog, but what exactly is your point here? Using Internet Meme's isn't exactly proof.

I may not be able to speak Russian. But I can tell the difference between a Russian and a Ukrainian soldier and I know what weapons and equipment both Armies use.

I thought we had a deal earlier, but I'm not gonna argue anymore. I could easily ask Orange to delete all the comments any this conversation would have never took place... :P

my point? i thought it's obvious. you are spreading lies and disinformation.

yeah, we still has this deal concerning your blatant support of the rise of nazism in usraine. same as before, that's fine by me. but since you started to spread lies and try to diminish honorable name of my country, i felt sudden urge to interfere.

you stated that russian army present in usraine. yet, you give no single proof.

captured and tortured by nazis pro-russian militants =/= russian army.

single downed spy drone/tank/truck =/= russian army.

arms and gear =/= russian army. there's a difference between supplying local insurgents with equipment and sending regular army to war.

>"...I can tell the difference between a Russian and a Ukrainian soldier and I know what weapons and equipment both Armies use." - so where's the pictures and videos of this fancy russian "weapons and equipment"?

orange_tomato is nazi, i have intention to troll him again as many times before, but he prefer to avoid me and not to show himself when i'm around. why do you think i'm afraid of orange_tomato deleting this conversation?

FYI, Youtube.com - this is how real russian invasion begins. mb you can show me footage like this from usraine?

If you're going to ask to have the entire conversation deleted, don't bother I have the whole thing screen capped and saved. I'd simply reupload the conversation to my page and you'd both end up looking like total bigots. -_-

To think I tried so hard to avoid anything Russian mainstream... guess they're all liars though. They get what they deserve right? : Youtube.com

Russian soldiers in Crimea. We were talking Ukraine last time I looked, Crimea is done, dusted, finished, nothing you say or do is going to get it "back" to Ukraine, the people overwhelmingly supported Russian reunification and just because some bullies in the international community had to throw a tantrum about it being an "illegitimate" referendum isn't going to mean they can have it for themselves. The French agree: Youtube.com

You know what's really funny? The media you quoted has often taken the junta's press releases at face value. No fact checking required. Constantly spamming WMSM is not going to change my mind, sorry.

You prove yet again that you know very little about Russian geopolitical policy when you sit there and dismiss NATO shenanigans as whataboutisms. Western foreign policy toward Russia and its former satellite states has contributed massively to how Russia has evolved in the 21st century.

"despite the denials", despite evidence to the contrary you mean...

I'm afraid you have a closed mind on the subject, and it's due to you making deductions solely from media that is written by the opposing side to Russia. Neutrality or independence you apparently don't give a damn about.

The attempt at insulting my intelligence by assuming to educate me on "whataboutisms" and quoting the Wikipedia page on the term was a little underwhelming. Whataboutism was used by both sides during the Cold War, but your source Wikipedia states that it was solely a Soviet tactic... cute. In fact "whataboutism" is a bunch of propaganda horseshit, a weak term coined so as to have the entire responsibility of retaliatory tit-for-tat geopolitics dumped on Russian shoulders. Makes it easier to steer around a clearly hypocritical article when you can avoid addressing the hypocrite by simply using a made up, murkily defined term. I dismissed it the first time due to its blatant irrelevance, especially in today's era.

Okay Spudd, now I understand. You do not care about anything about the topic of Ukraine that presents a differing point of view to yours. Even if I quote fairly reliable sources like Al Jazeera or the Guardian it doesn't mean anything to you. Sources like these generally have little/no diatribe in their articles. Yet you quote sources that bash/attack the other side, I thought more of you Spudd...

As for "Neutrality" and "Independence" I apparently "don't give a damn about". I do take a look at both sides, and my conclusion? Most the stuff I see from the so-called "Russian perspective" (including the stuff you posted) attacks the West and its leaders. Most of the articles I've seen generally aren't part of "WMSM", so I may look a little ignorant in that regard. I only trust sources that take a non-diatribe approach and I've seen this more in Pro-West articles than Pro-Russian articles. Hate to say it, mate.

So I supposedly insulted your intelligence? Boohoo, thats not my fault if people like you generally don't know what the term "Whataboutism" means. So both sides used the tactic? I'd like to know if the West ever used it, because I don't recall them using a "Tu Quoque". Besides, I'd rather support a Democracy where there a "Freedom of the Press" rather than an Authoritarian Government that censors information unfavorable to them. I knew someone at some point would try to debunk "Whataboutism" as "Propaganda". But you can't argue with logical fallacies Spudd. Oh, and your Straw man argument with Wikipedia only shows you ignored the other links I posted.

Spudd, clearly you sound like a Conspiracy Theorist who is very edgy on differing opinions to yours, especially towards Russia.
Seems we have a thing in common, only we have different opinions. And don't make that pathetic "your only calling me a Conspiracy Theorist because I present a different opinion to you".

Time for me retire...

despite without any interest, but i read the whole post of yours. no offence, that's the biggest load of ******** somebody ever tried to feed me with. you're wrong on so many points, it's just ridiculous.

i repeat, u do not know anything about usraine.

>"I am able to gain information about it from professional journalists, independent media and experts" - second-hand opinion won't make you smarter. you should learn russian and watch all the interwievs in original, without any manipulation. you just admitted, that you are spoon-fed by propaganda.

>Last time I checked you said you were "struggling against Anti-Russian propaganda" - me? serious? what context this frase was used? Moddb.com re-read, 2-nd page, my comment dated Mar 15 2015, 11:10am. this is what i wrote to OminousSpudd, my friend here on ModDB. fail.

>"So there is fascists committing genocide against ethnic Russians in Ukraine you say?" - yes, there are. and once again, you refer to mass media, your only sourse of information. i don't call usrainian junta "nazis" because of tv and wiki (seriosly, wtf), i judge them by their actions. May 2, 2014 nazis burn people alive in Odessa (but you don't know what Odessa is, are you?). after, when nazi junta came to power, their first act was to forbide russian language, and beginning of extermination campaign against ethnic Russians. genocide campaign failed, but so many children died, and still dying.

>"Stay off the state controlled RT (don't know if you watch it)" - i don't watch RT. but you so strongly deny this news channel, that everyone can clearly see: all the information you percept from mass media is one-sided. you are avoiding any other point of view as if it's sharp edges can blast you bubble. you simple chose to find bliss in ignorance, it's obvious for me. but not that i care.

>"average US citizen couldn't care less about your country" - US? why? i thought, you're from Australia. in Australia you have coalas and kangaroos and big spiders. mind them, not the warmongering worldpower state with top 2-nd nuclear arsenal in the world. our relations with USA is complicated, and even i can't say on behalf of every russian citizen their attitude towards USA.

>"I have neither the time nor interest to "re-inform" you on what is going on" - i had the same intention, yet we spend much time trying to persuade each other. my offer is to stop this. if you want to live in beautiful lie you surrounded yourself with, so be it. this is what freedom of opinion is all about, isn't it?

Okay, I guess I took it a bit too far there. Sorry about that, I just assumed you were a "Russian Zombie" because of your other comments. Turns out I'm mistaken, though you did misinterpret many of my points. Either that or you just ignored others.

"i repeat, u do not know anything about usraine."
*Ukraine, not usraine :P. Do you expect me to write an essay about what is happening in Ukraine? No thanks...

I did some research and judging by the violence, I can now understand (I can see the light! I'm cured!) why someone would refer to the Right Sector as a Nazi or Fascistic Group. Like I said before, there are groups like these causing chaos within the country and they are extreme to say the least. However, I fail to see any genocide/extermination campaign, so called Nazi Junta taking power, I don't recall anything about Russian language been forbidden. You can still speak Russian in Ukraine, have you even been there recently? Oh, and Odessa is a major city in Ukraine, I'm not stupid.

You may have wondering why I support the USA even though I'm Australian. Why? Pretty much the same reason why your friend Spudd (Kiwi/New Zealander) supports Russia. The fact where you live does not determine how much you know or who you side on. Keep it out of future political conversations next time please.

I do try to find alternative news. But most of it is pointless due to the other sources parroting the same thing as the Russian media (propaganda), which I never trust due it being state controlled (suppress dissent). Western MSM does white-wash many events in Ukraine though, and also not to be entirely trusted.

"my offer is to stop this"
Offer accepted, its useless trying to argue with each other because we have strong views, it only leads to throwing around accusations and name calling. And yes, we all have a right to freedom of opinion here but then some opinions can be wrong.

Now to deal with Spudd, word of advice. Do be a bud and not intervene? That only makes it worse, this is between him and me only.

You're defending Orange Tomato's position for him, explain why I should stay out of this?

No Spudd, I was talking to nasorog to not get involved in our "conversation".

Haha, indeed the spam is real. But as long as people wish to spread disinformation there will always be people ready to fight it, spam or no spam.

Fist pump back at you mate.