Which nation do you find the most fun to play? Thread - Dominions 3: The Awakening

This thread is just for fun and obviously not intended to be an accurate survey. I think there was probably a similar thread on Shrapnel at some point but I'm too lazy to look it up and anyway since then there have been many new mod nations and balance mod changes and this is a new forum to boot I figured I'd start a thread here.

The question is simple: what nation do you find the most fun too play? Not the most powerful or the one that gives you the best chance to win - but the most fun. And though it may be difficult you can only choose one, no ties. I'll tally up the results in this completely unscientific survey. Any nation, base game or mod, is eligible and you can specify a gameplay mod if you'd like.

I've always found it interesting to see what style of play, magic paths, etc., people prefer and would be interested to read people's comments as to why they chose a certain nation. Of course some people like variety and would get bored playing the same type of nation repeatedly (as those who have played with me know I have no issue with this ).

Results:

BASE GAME NATIONS

EA Aby - 1 vote

EA Arco - 1 vote

LA Arco - 1 vote

EA Ashdod - 1 vote

MA Bandar Log - 1 vote

LA C'tis - 1 vote
Magic Sites Mod - 1 vote

MA Ermor - 1 vote

Lanka - 1 vote

EA Marverni - 2 vote

EA Mictlan - 1 vote

EA Pan - 1 vote
Mytheology - 1 vote

EA T'ien Ch'i - 1 vote

EA TNN - 1 vote
CBM - 1 vote

MA Ulm - 1 vote

LA Ulm - 1 vote

EA Vanheim - 1 vote

MA Vanheim - 2 vote

EA Yomi - 1 vote

MOD NATIONS

Warhammer Empire - 1 vote

Warhammer Skaven - 1 vote

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Ok, I'll kick things off.

My list of contenders:

TNN, Eriu, MA Pan, MA Van, MA Aby

With one exception, all my contenders obviously feature stealth as a primary theme. Secondary theme is mobility (I find map move 1 units - especially commanders - very frustrating).

TNN - all glamour, all the time! (well, except for the firbolg) Along with Eriu the best in the game at raiding thugs (my single favorite aspect of Dom). Also, while not a top rank sacred troop, I'm fond of Tuatha Warriors.

Eriu - not as stealthy as TNN but with my new favorite mage in the game: the CBM Ri.

MA Pan - A nation I enjoy playing as well as my nemesis - three times I've lost to them.

MA Van - Not as stealthy as EA Van on the troop side but makes up for it with the addition of skinshifters and einheres providing interesting options (and two sacred troops that beat out EA Van's Vanhere).

MA Aby - the outlier here since unlike all my other contenders stealth is not dominant theme. But features my previous, and longtime, favorite mage in the game: the Abysian warlock. Also, once those warlocks start teleporting and the flying demonic summons come online Aby is a very mobile nation.

Finalists:

TNN and MA Van: I have probably played TNN/Eriu more than EA/MA Van at this point but in terms of fun I think I'd have to give the edge to Van. It's because of the blood magic and the options it open up. It's not that it makes Van more powerful than TNN/Eriu (though it does do that), it's that the additional alternatives make the game more interesting.

So, my winner for most fun nation is MA Van. While Van isn't as dependent on CBM changes as, say, Eriu, I do typically play CBM games so I will include that in my choice.

Edit: after reconsideration, and selecting TNN in yet another game, I shift my vote to them.

Edited by: Valerius.

EA Pan, MA Pan, EA Arcos, Bogarus, MA Man, Eriu
probably in that order so the winner would be EA Pan

mods? SingleAge
and second would be Mytheology then Magic Site Mod

Edited by: gp1628

Warhammer Empire- Nice blend of everything and some of the nicest sprites around. The lack of any heroes is mitigated by being able to recruit the various knightly orders and wizard lords.

I with you on this one Valerius.

Stealthy nations all the way. I have to say my two favorites right now are EA Helhiem and MA Vanhiem, but MA Vanhiem probably takes the top prize. Blood + the awesomeness that is Vanadrott/Smith combo in MA makes for tons of options. It's one of the few nations in the game that doesn't really lose anything in the transition from EA to MA.

Other nations in the running are also TNN, Eriu, and MA Man. I'm a bit of a sucker for "Good" nations. Only problem is that these guys are still under powered even with the changes in CBM. MA Man crones still take the prize for the most worthless mage in the game. As a result, I play them a lot less often that I would if I was going purely based on "Fun".

gp1628 wrote: probably in that order so the winner would be EA Pan

I think you voting for Pan was about as inevitable as me going for a glamour nation.

gp1628 wrote: mods? SingleAge
and second would be Mytheology then Magic Site Mod

Single Age is a tricky one since I believe it is only intended to allow nations from all eras in a game but not otherwise change gameplay. So I'm not sure if I should specify that or instead go with Mytheology since that is gameplay altering. I'm inclined to go with Mytheology.

bradicus13 wrote: Warhammer Empire- Nice blend of everything and some of the nicest sprites around. The lack of any heroes is mitigated by being able to recruit the various knightly orders and wizard lords.

I definitely expect to see more votes for Warhammer nations based both on the quality of the mods and the popularity of the Warhammer universe. As an aside, I really like the Brettonia sprites as well - reminds me of figurines of knights when I was a kid.

Torgoni wrote: I with you on this one Valerius.Stealthy nations all the way.

Haha! Stealthy nations are dominating! They may not actually dominate when to comes to winning games (though Pan actually has quite a good record) but at least they're popular. Take that decrepit old communion mage nations!

Helheim is the one glamour nation I've never played and I think it's because I'm not much of a fan of D magic (obviously I don't choose my favorite paths based on their power).

Torgoni wrote: Blood + the awesomeness that is Vanadrott/Smith combo in MA makes for tons of options. It's one of the few nations in the game that doesn't really lose anything in the transition from EA to MA.

I agree completely. I mean recruit everywhere glamour troops is nice but I think you come out ahead swapping those for skinshifters and einhere and better sacreds. Plus, there's a lot fewer blood nations in the MA and given the power of blood magic that's a relative advantage.

Torgoni wrote: I'm a bit of a sucker for "Good" nations. Only problem is that these guys are still under powered even with the changes in CBM. MA Man crones still take the prize for the most worthless mage in the game. As a result, I play them a lot less often that I would if I was going purely based on "Fun".

I also like "good" nations but blood magic is so much fun... I've only played Man in test games but the thing that drives me crazy about crones is the map move 1 (unless that's been changed?). Anyway, I think you have fine taste in nations.

Valerius. wrote:

I also like "good" nations but blood magic is so much fun... I've only played Man in test games but the thing that drives me crazy about crones is the map move 1 (unless that's been changed?). Anyway, I think you have fine taste in nations.

Map move 1, old age, and limited to A3 (realistically) are the real kickers for me.

The last one really kicks them in the teeth vs. the other air nations. No access to A4 without a pretender basically means a 120 design point hit right off the bat if you want high level A access.

AN is fantastic for the glamour thug nations, but AN as the only serious paths for a nation of normal humans is just plain mean.

Edited by: Torgoni

Although as a frequent Eriu player one thing I am jealous of is Man's healing ability. This is because I get way too attached to my thugs once they rack up a few stars experience and nice heroic ability and despair when they pick up an affliction I can't heal.

Btw, if you play CBM games what about the national Hex spell? When that was introduced I thought it could be powerful - especially if it was AI friendly and got spammed after the first five rounds. I've experimented with Flood of Life when playing TNN/Eriu but it hasn't been as effective as I'd hoped, though perhaps that was just because I didn't have enough penetration boosters on my mages.

Healing great, but its a bit wasted on Man, they don't have anything worth healing. No great recruitable thugs (I suppose Lord Wardens could count with the right bless, but they're cheap so healing is less useful, and a bless is very tough to justify) no mind hunt spamming mages, etc. The only real use I've found for it under the current CBM is to hand a couple nature booster to diseased crones (to remove old age temporarily) and then heal them up. But the healing is so low, and you have to forgo a cap only crone to get it that even that is a stretch.

Hex is underwhelming. At the end of the day its still just a single target MR negates spell that just a little lower fatigue than Polymorph. Not exactly a game changer. I'd say wrath of avalon is actually a bigger deal. However, its still underwhelming as all it nets you is more high HP, low MR troops, something nature is not really struggling for as is.

One CBM change that I have found quite useful for Man is the fear on kithriotic lions. I almost always set a couple E random crones to monthly castings of these guys.

Edited by: Torgoni

Torgoni wrote:

Map move 1, old age, and limited to A3 (realistically) are the real kickers for me.

The last one really kicks them in the teeth vs. the other air nations. No access to A4 without a pretender basically means a 120 design point hit right off the bat if you want high level A access.

AN is fantastic for the glamour thug nations, but AN as the only serious paths for a nation of normal humans is just plain mean.

60 Air Gems for empowerment to A4 is cheaper than 120 design points. It's twice as expensive as an Air booster like Bag of Winds, but it unlocks A4 for everybody else.

Key things that make a nation fun for me: recruitable-anywhere battlemages, mapmove 2, no blood, access to my favorite paths (D, E, S, and F in that order), solid recruitable-anywhere troops, sacreds worth taking a bless for. There aren't very many nations with strong recruitable-anywhere battle mages, and before Svartalfs were nerfed I liked Helheim best, but now it's Ashdod. Ashdod's troops are mostly rubbish but their mages are great. (They also have some cool summons like the Hashmal and the Ditanu.)

Runners-up: Niefelheim (boring magic paths but fun werewolves), LA Agartha (great mages and troops but poor sacreds and mapmove 1). Pangaea's revelers have impressed me recently as terrific troops and I am sort of tempted to try them, but I find Nature boring, and all of its good spells except Wooden Warriors seem to require gem micro.

-Max

Edited by: wilsonmax

wilsonmax wrote:

60 Air Gems for empowerment to A4 is cheaper than 120 design points. It's twice as expensive as an Air booster like Bag of Winds, but it unlocks A4 for everybody else.

I've been through every debate imaginable about the relative benefits of A4 pretender vs. 60 gem empowerment on crones. Both can have cases made for them. Major point is that Man has to do one or the other for full A access- no other Air nation except Lanka has the same problem. It's a big handicap and one of the reasons I hate crones even though Man is one of my favorite nations.

If we get into mod nations, its actually one of the reasons I like Bretonnia. Bretonnia is essentially what you build if you decide you want the good nation of Knights with AWNE magic to not suck.

Edited by: Torgoni

MONKEYS! Nuff said.

Torgoni wrote: One CBM change that I have found quite useful for Man is the fear on kithriotic lions. I almost always set a couple E random crones to monthly castings of these guys.

I forgot about these but I agree they're very nice. I'll even pay them the high compliment of saying they're "demon quality" summons (not that they can compete on a cost basis with demonic summons but they are solid). I don't use them much with TNN/Eriu because those N gems are needed for thug gear but I tried them out in a test game and thought they were effective.

wilsonmax wrote: Key things that make a nation fun for me: recruitable-anywhere battlemages, mapmove 2, no blood, access to my favorite paths (D, E, S, and F in that order), solid recruitable-anywhere troops, sacreds worth taking a bless for. There aren't very many nations with strong recruitable-anywhere battle mages, and before Svartalfs were nerfed I liked Helheim best, but now it's Ashdod. Ashdod's troops are mostly rubbish but their mages are great. (They also have some cool summons like the Hashmal and the Ditanu.)

I believe you play vanilla so those are unnerfed zamzummites, right? Definitely qualifies as a strong recruit everywhere mage.

Something I wondered a while back was whether the issues that resulted in the great glamour nerf were primarily due to Helheim's recruit everywhere svartalfs. I say that because while Helheim reeled off a string of wins as far as I know Van didn't. Of course it could have been a combination of glamour and svartalfs. Not complaining about since I'm quite happy with the current CBM Van but I've wondered about it.

As an aside, since you are a SP gamer I think you should mod svartalf's back to recruit everywhere (and do the same to any other nation whose cap only mages you like). If that was the nation and setup you enjoyed most why not play the way that's fun for you?

wilsonmax wrote: Runners-up: Niefelheim (boring magic paths but fun werewolves)

Skratti are great (and terrifyingly effective thug/SC killers) and I really like their three forms. I'm not sure if it's unique but it's certainly very different. I also really like the descriptive text for Iron Woods Jotun.

wilsonmax wrote: Pangaea's revelers have impressed me recently as terrific troops and I am sort of tempted to try them, but I find Nature boring, and all of its good spells except Wooden Warriors seem to require gem micro.

Revelers are my favorite Pangaean troop. Six attacks per square? I'll take that. It never gets old seeing a reveler expansion party tear through indie barbarians.

I realized I kind of short-changed Pan in my description in the OP. I like playing them when I want to concentrate on troops and buffing them, with the possibility to branch into blood. And Pans are fantastic late game army buffers. Elemental resistances, prot and MR boosts, relief, regen, and weapons of sharpness and iron bane on offense. Add a couple of A mages and you're set. And Pans have the toughness to survive a late game battlefield and recup to heal up if they get injured.

While I can't say N is the most exciting path (and Pan only has level 2+ in one of your four favorites paths; two if you go LA), for single player purposes I think the micro is manageable. Most of the time I expect you can get by with 1 gem per battle (ferried in by those excellent harpy scouts) for mass protection and then just have Pans buff your troops with weapons of sharpness (no gems needed). Mix in centaur archers if you want.

Heck, talking about Pan makes me want to play them!

Maerlande wrote: MONKEYS! Nuff said.

But...you can NEVER win. (Sorry, but that was obligatory. Tradition and all that.)

Quite. I accept tradition. I have since broken it. But what the hell? If you break with tradition you break with Jesus.

I had forgotten how much you like monkeys but I was pretty sure you'd be a vote for a communion nation.

Are those awesome BL summons cost competitive without gem gens?

valerius wrote:

wilsonmax wrote: Key things that make a nation fun for me: recruitable-anywhere battlemages, mapmove 2, no blood, access to my favorite paths (D, E, S, and F in that order), solid recruitable-anywhere troops, sacreds worth taking a bless for. There aren't very many nations with strong recruitable-anywhere battle mages, and before Svartalfs were nerfed I liked Helheim best, but now it's Ashdod. Ashdod's troops are mostly rubbish but their mages are great. (They also have some cool summons like the Hashmal and the Ditanu.)

I believe you play vanilla so those are unnerfed zamzummites, right? Definitely qualifies as a strong recruit everywhere mage. [snip] As an aside, since you are a SP gamer I think you should mod svartalf's back to recruit everywhere (and do the same to any other nation whose cap only mages you like). If that was the nation and setup you enjoyed most why not play the way that's fun for you?

While I can't say N is the most exciting path (and Pan only has level 2+ in one of your four favorites paths; two if you go LA), for single player purposes I think the micro is manageable. Most of the time I expect you can get by with 1 gem per battle (ferried in by those excellent harpy scouts) for mass protection and then just have Pans buff your troops with weapons of sharpness (no gems needed). Mix in centaur archers if you want.

Yes, I do play vanilla. I have at times considered modding Svarftalfs back to recruit-anywhere, or even modding lots of nations to have recruit-anywhere mages, but somehow that just feels like cheating and so I haven't done it. (Well, I did try it briefly with Helheim, which is why I know it feels like cheating.) However, I don't have a problem with the AI cheating so I do occasionally let the AI recruit its units anywhere, e.g. recruit-anywhere Shadow Vestals for MA Ermor (and no other recruitable troops lest the AI spend all its time recruiting lame-but-cheap units). But I won't do that for myself.

Gem micro might be manageable, but it just isn't any *fun* to me, which is what this thread is about. I love Death magic, but there are some pretty awesome Death spells like Plague and Rigor Mortis which I nevertheless avoid in favor of gemless spells like Cloud of Death because, well, to me that's what fun mages are all about. Blasting things, not spending gems.

-Max

P.S. Honorable mention also goes to C'tis, either EA or LA. Good troops, excellent battlemages. Lots of fun.

Edited by: wilsonmax

Sure I lobbied hard for cost reduction and got it.

The new prices in CBM seem good to me. I liked the clams and old prices but I argued hard for some changes without clams. Even so, I haven't summoned any ghandarvas in a long time. 18 pearls is just too much without clams.

wilsonmax wrote: Yes, I do play vanilla. I have at times considered modding Svarftalfs back to recruit-anywhere, or even modding lots of nations to have recruit-anywhere mages, but somehow that just feels like cheating and so I haven't done it.

Fair enough.

wilsonmax wrote: Gem micro might be manageable, but it just isn't any *fun* to me, which is what this thread is about. I love Death magic, but there are some pretty awesome Death spells like Plague and Rigor Mortis which I nevertheless avoid in favor of gemless spells like Cloud of Death because, well, to me that's what fun mages are all about. Blasting things, not spending gems.

I think I see what you're saying. Restocking gems is a tedious - but necessary - part of the MP game. If you can avoid some of that tedium in SP, why not do so? And that 's completely aside from the fact that Pan isn't much good at blasting things.

Maerlande wrote: Sure I lobbied hard for cost reduction and got it.

The new prices in CBM seem good to me. I liked the clams and old prices but I argued hard for some changes without clams. Even so, I haven't summoned any ghandarvas in a long time. 18 pearls is just too much without clams.

You know, I didn't realize that those summons had dropped in price... I mentioned it because a while back (maybe the YARG 3 thread?) I asked what people thought about the prices of some of the national summons. I had in mind angels specifically. And no, I don't think Pythium needs a boost but it might be a nice perk for Mari to drop the price a bit for them. So I'm not sure what other nations might still have national summons that are priced a bit high. I'm a big fan of the addition of the EDM summons to CBM but also think that national summons should be priced to encourage their use.

Maerlande wrote: Sure I lobbied hard for cost reduction and got it.

The new prices in CBM seem good to me. I liked the clams and old prices but I argued hard for some changes without clams. Even so, I haven't summoned any ghandarvas in a long time. 18 pearls is just too much without clams.

I'll second the monkey's as being quite fun! Particularly Bandar if you can break into blood early - simply so many options it boggles the mind. And that's what really makes a nation fun - unique, cool options. Monkeys have them in spades.

But I will also agree that 3 pearls per Ghandarva is way to pricey. Particularly when you can get Kinnaras for 20 pearls a piece one research level higher.

Edited by: Torgoni

MA Caelum. Unparalleled strategic mobility, cold dominion for defense and build points, great and surprisingly versatile battle magic, cheap and strong thugs, water forging, good underwater capability - all you really need to come up with is a solution for melee combat. Or a way to avoid it. Which is where the fun comes in.

Edited by: tenuki

Valerius. wrote:

gp1628 wrote: mods? SingleAge
and second would be Mytheology then Magic Site Mod

Single Age is a tricky one since I believe it is only intended to allow nations from all eras in a game but not otherwise change gameplay. So I'm not sure if I should specify that or instead go with Mytheology since that is gameplay altering. I'm inclined to go with Mytheology.

That makes sense. Go with that.
SingleAge is biased on my part anyway. I feel like I almost have to vote for it.
I was also trying to work in SemiRand and Chaos but as 3rd party programs they didnt fit the topic.

Ulm and Abysia in any era. I also like Helheim, Fomoria and Tir na n'Og. Not that I'm necessarily a good player or even leverage all the advantages of these nations, but they are my favorites for thematic and in-game lore reasons.

Torgoni wrote: I'll second the monkey's as being quite fun! Particularly Bandar is you can break into blood early - simply so many options it boggles the mind. And that's what really makes a nation fun - unique, cool options. Monkeys have them in spades.

Oh yeah, that's right, there's the blood summons as well. I'm a bit jealous of nations that have so many national summons since my favorites have few or none (though I am fond of TNN/Eriu's green dogs).

tenuki wrote: MA Caelum. Unparalleled strategic mobility, cold dominion for defense and build points, great and surprisingly versatile battle magic, cheap and strong thugs, water forging, good underwater capability - all you really need to come up with is a solution for melee combat. Or a way to avoid it. Which is where the fun comes in.

That's one I thought of after I made my list of contenders but since I've only played them once I didn't have enough games that I felt they qualified for my list. Still, I had a lot of fun with them that game. And since it was an experimental low magic game I could fly around with my stack of seraphs/high seraphs with army in tow and not worry about getting nuked by flames from the sky.

tenuki wrote: ...all you really need to come up with is a solution for melee combat. Or a way to avoid it. Which is where the fun comes in.

I agree. Crippling weakness is obviously a bad thing for a nation to have, but having weaknesses that you need to find solutions to or work around makes things interesting.

Edirr wrote: Not that I'm necessarily a good player or even leverage all the advantages of these nations, but they are my favorites for thematic and in-game lore reasons.

No worries on that count. For this question at least, experience, skill, SP/MP preference, etc., don't matter.

Edirr wrote: Ulm and Abysia in any era. I also like Helheim, Fomoria and Tir na n'Og.

Could pick one nation/era for the sake of my unscientific survey?

EA TC, a bit obvious in my case but I've had great fun with them in both duels, blitzes, small and large games.

Other contenders are LA Atlantis, all Agarthas, LA Ulm and EA Ulm... but I think I like most nations I've tried to actually develop a competitive strategy for, just that there is still plenty of nations I haven't tried to do that with yet, or died too quickly to really discover their beauty.

MA Pythium gets an honorary mention because I played my first MP game with them and it was amazing fun to discover how fun dom3 MP was.

Edited by: Fantomen

Fantomen wrote: EA TC, a bit obvious in my case but I've had great fun with them in both duels, blitzes, small and large games.

I think that's the most diverse nation yet (though I'm not sure about Empire). Although apparently I've forgotten a lot about BL and maybe when you factor in summons they have every path available - just not out of the box.

Fantomen wrote: MA Pythium gets an honorary mention because I played my first MP game with them and it was amazing fun to discover how fun dom3 MP was.

Dom3 kind of ruined SP strategy games for me once I saw how much fun MP was. And btw, anyone reading this considering playing MP, the reason I started playing MP is because of the great community. I guess I would describe it as friendly competitiveness. Not that I'm trying to push anyone into MP, but it's worth mentioning it's a good group of people.

Valerius. wrote:

Edirr wrote: Ulm and Abysia in any era. I also like Helheim, Fomoria and Tir na n'Og.

Could pick one nation/era for the sake of my unscientific survey?

Ulm, Late Era

After that, in order of preference:

• Ulm, Middle Era
• Abysia, Early Era
• Abysia, Middle Era
• Fomoria
• Ulm, Early era

After that, no particular preference

As far as eras themselves go in totality, the middle era is the most interesting. Particularly the transition from middle to late era. Lore-wise, that is.